SID: Sid Roth here with John and Lisa Bevere. And pornography, it’s insidious. When you started, it wasn’t that pervasive. Right now, how pervasive is it?

JOHN: Right now you have 40 million Americans that are visiting porn sites a year. One in every ten websites is a porn site, one in every ten was the biggest of any except until social media just took over. You have 50 percent of Christian males are addicted to pornography. Seventy percent of Christian males visit, this is [from] CNN.

SID: Fifty percent.

JOHN: Addicted.

SID: Wow.

JOHN: And then you have 70 percent that visit pornography, according to, this is a CNN report.

SID: Is this just men?

JOHN: It’s also women. One in five women are addicted to pornography. So you’ve got an epidemic here that’s kept in the closet amongst Christians. I was in that situation. My first four years of marriage with Lisa were like terrible because of the guilt that I was carrying because of pornography. And I remember opening up to a man of God, he sharply rebuked me. But I remember it wasn’t until a year later, about nine months later I went on a four-day fast and I realized that what I was doing was breaking the heart of the one I loved, Jesus, and then breaking the heart of the other one I loved, Lisa. And when I realized that I was hurting God’s heart that was godly sorrow that led me to the deliverance that 2 Corinthians, chapter 7 tells us about. Before, I was scared what was going to happen to me. Am I going to be judged? Am I going to lose my ministry? Am I going to, you know, what are the ramifications of losing my marriage. That’s worldly sorrow. That’s when the focus is on us. But when I realized I was hurting God’s heart, that was what led me to get the freedom. And I can say now today, I was free on May the 6th, 1985, completely free. But what had to happen was God had to renew my mind.

SID: Lisa, you got so angry with John one day, you took your engagement ring off.

LISA: I did. I did. I said, we are married, but we are not engaged. I don’t know what I was thinking. I thought that would just make a statement.

JOHN: It did.

LISA: Well I was really upset with him and I brought it to God because I really felt like God was on my side. I thought he was upset with John, too. So I was like, God, you see what he does. You see how he talks to me. God, you see this. And all he would say to me was, “Lisa, tell me that I’m enough for you.” And I said, “If I tell you that you’re enough for me does that mean John’s not going to change? If that’s what it means I’m not going to put my ring back on. I’m not going to do this.” And he said, “No, I really need to hear from you that I am enough for you.” So I remember, I said, “All right God, you’re enough for me.” And then it went from, “you’re enough for me” to “you are more than enough for me.” And when God became more than enough for me then I had more than enough for John. And so then it was, you know, God began to open up John’s heart and he began to move in both of our lives. But we’re both stubborn. And so it takes pressing into the presence of God for a lot of times for us to hear things.

SID: But John, you reached a point that you hit Lisa.

JOHN: First three years of our marriage, I’m so ashamed to say this, but I realize I’ve got to open up because I really want to see this completely eradicated from any marriage. I remember the shame that I carried and Lisa did a wonderful thing. She locked me out of the house. And she said, “You’re not coming in.” I said, “Open up.” She said, “You’re not coming in.” She said, “Go figure this out.” So I went to some friends’ house and I spent the, you know, the weekend fasting. And I remember I came back a real changed man and you know, the thing is, is God has given men a stronger vessel. I mean, when Peter says, “Honor your wife as the weaker vessel,” the only thing that means is that she can’t bench press much as you. That’s all it means. So here, God makes us the guardian of a woman with a frailer frame and not a strong frame, and also is sensitive and tender, and sensitive and tenderness is a strength. Our job is to guard and protect them. What I was doing and what justified me striking back is she would provoke me so much by attacking me so much I felt justified. Well when I realized that, I said, I will never, ever do this again. But that is not a place at all in a marriage. A man, no matter how much he feels like he’s being talked, attacked, dishonored by his wife, he should not dishonor her back by touching her or speaking to her in a dishonoring way.

SID: When things were at their worst, God spoke to you and this might have shocked you, but when things were at their worst, God told you to back him?

JOHN: This was amazing. I was just, I had had it. I thought there is no hope left for our marriage. I went to God and just said, “God, I’ve had it. I’ve just had it. I just can’t go another day.” And the Lord, I remember I was out and it was quiet for quite a while. Then all of a sudden, I heard the Holy Spirit say, “I want you to thank me for one thing about Lisa, just one thing.” I said, “Well she’s a good mom.” And then all of a sudden I said, “She’s a good cook.” And then I said, “And she really dresses well.” And I said, “She’s made a beautiful house.” And all of a sudden things started pouring out of me how much I was thankful for, for this woman, you know. And I thought, you jerk, you idiot, oh my gosh. And I remember going back to the house and I thought, she’s not going to listen to what I’m going to say. But I just said, “Lisa, I’ve been so stupid. You’re a phenomenal mother, a phenomenal cook, you have kept such a beautiful home. You care so tenderly for people and for me. I’m so sorry.” And what I was amazed at is she softened, too. And that was the real, I would say, turning point for our marriage is when that happened. And so I realized that in situations you’re always going, you know, the enemy wants to destroy your marriage. He just wants to destroy it. So you’re going to get into situations where you think, I mean, come on, Jesus sweat drops of blood in the garden. So did he quit? No. Okay, you’re going to get, and I’m just going to tell you, you’re going to get to places in your marriage possibly that you’re going to go, I can’t handle it anymore. And that’s, you’re like right at the brink of a breakthrough many times, if you’ll just listen to the counsel of God’s Word.

SID: I’m telling you, there is hope. There is nothing hopeless in God. Nothing. All things are possible.

JOHN: That’s right, Sid.

SID: We’re going to be right back.

SID: Sid Roth here with Cherie Calbom. And Cherie, I’ve never heard of this. I mean, I’ve heard of inflammation, of course. But I’ve never heard it being the root of most diseases. What is inflammation, for starters?

CHERIE: Inflammation, if we see it on the surface like a cut or a sprained ankle, we see redness, swelling, irritation. It’s obvious. But inside at the cellular level, we can’t see that a little cell is distressed. They call it the silent killer. It’s a big frontier of study right now, inflammation being at the root of every condition that there is, and we must get it down. And what is it? It’s a distressed cell and it’s an over-reaction of the immune system. And so this is going on right down at the cellular level, and every disease out there, if you’re listening right now and you say, oh, I’ve got something wrong with me, you’ve got inflammation and we want to show you how to get that down.

SID: Okay. Well when you have inflammation, aren’t there medical things, pills and things you can take to get rid of it? Isn’t that the simple way? And I know you’re not going to like that, but I have to ask you.

CHERIE: You had to ask, didn’t you?

SID: Yes.

CHERIE: Yeah. Well you know, a lot of those pills add to your inflammation, add to the toxicity in the body. What we need is the anti-inflammation diet. We need food that bring inflammation down in our body. We need to not eat the foods that are pro-inflammation.

SID: Let’s talk about that a little bit. What would cause, what are we eating that’s causing inflammation and is it increasing in society?

CHERIE: It is increasing and studies show that. And what I’m about to tell is based on scientific studies, one thing right after another. The number one cause of inflammation today, and this is based on studies, scientific studies at universities, is junk food. All the packaged, boxed stuff that we eat has things in it: additives, wrong types of sugar, dyes, preservatives, pesticides, on and on it goes. The body was never designed for this kind of stuff pouring into our bodies. And so many people are getting the convenience foods, packaged things, things that are making, things they think are easy, making life simple for them, it’s making us sick. Number two are all the sugars and they’re bad sugars: high fructose corn syrup, fructose and in everything, all the artificial sweeteners, and too much sugar and sugar in all different forms not created by God, and way too much sugar. We were never designed for that. Scripture says, “A little honey, not a whole lot.” That’s what we eat all day long.

SID: I thought it said, eat as much as you want. I got a lot on this (unintelligible).

CHERIE: So that’s based on scientific study, too, way too much sugar, and sugar is an inflammation-causing product. We cannot be eating this sugar. And people eat it all day long, a sugary cereal for breakfast, sweeten their tea or their coffee. They may have a little dessert for lunch, a little energy bar packed with sugar, a dessert after dinner. We’ve got sugar, sugar, sugar all day long, and packaged foods.

SID: Wait a second. They package things right now with artificial sugar. It doesn’t give you any calories. It’s wonderful, zero calories.

CHERIE: Zero calories and I say scary, scary stuff. And you know why? Now studies are showing it’s supposed to be the diet sweetener, right? It makes people overweight, 500 times more addictive and making people want to eat more sweets and it deranges our metabolism, and it causes people to gain much more weight, and to want to eat more food, and to want to eat more sweets. And then they’ve done studies showing statistically, when artificial sweeteners came on the market, a couple years later, brain tumors spiked way up. If you see a bar graph, you’ll see a big spike and you’ll see all sorts of migraine headaches and other problems, and central nervous system problems. These are not things God designed.

SID: Are you telling me if you get your inflammation under control, you’ll get your heart under control?

CHERIE: You will. And studies have proven that. In fact, right at the top of the list of what is contributing to heart disease is high inflammation. And there I found a quote by a cardiologist, and he said, “If you did not have inflammation in your body irritating your arteries, cholesterol would flow freely on through.”

SID: No, no, no. We have cholesterol medicine now. No problem, Cherie. That’s what doctors push, cholesterol medicine.

CHERIE: No problem. Pop a pill, right?

SID: Yeah.

CHERIE: It’s supposed to answer everything. You know, there’s a study out of the U.K., the WIN Institute did a study and found as many people died of heart disease with low cholesterol as with high, and they said we find no correlation with cholesterol. God created cholesterol. It’s there to plug up a wound. If we cut ourselves, we want cholesterol, goes in and plugs it up. If we have an irritated artery, that cholesterol is going to go in and cover up that wound in your artery or irritation. It’s done what God called it to do. What do we have to do? Get that irritation down, get that inflammation down.

SID: So we’re going after the symptoms rather than the causes. That’s what I’m hearing you say.

CHERIE: We are. And God is always wise and he’s saying, go to the root of the problem. “Come out from among them, my people,” he says, “and be separate because I’ve given you the food, the diet, the plan.” He designed this body. It was like you got a Ford and you said, I don’t want to put in the right fuel that Ford, said put that in that car, I want to put in what I think is great. Uh-uh. God says, here’s the fuel for your body, this is what’s going to give you health, vitality, wholeness, vibrant health, so you can go do that work in the Kingdom. You can help all those people get on the train you’re talking about. You need, we need lots of workers. We are all needed in this great time of harvest.

SID: You know, you told me that you got so many responses from the last time you were on our show. Tell me about someone from, the woman from India. It’s a neat story.

CHERIE: I’m so excited about her. She went to her doctor and had a large cyst on her ovary. It measured, if my memory is correct, at 4 by 3 centimeters. She had no insurance, no money to get that taken care of, and really no hope. And saw our last show, and said, okay, I’m going to get this package, and I’m going to give it a try. And she got a juicer, and she started juicing, and she changed her diet. And eight months later, went back to her doctor, and he said the cyst is gone. Thanks be to God. It was a miraculous healing.

SID: You know, when we come back, you’re going to find out that it’s the most wonderful, nutritious food that you can eat. It’s not just juicing. It’s a whole diet. Are you interested in seeing what it’s like? We’ll be right back

SID: You know, one of the things I notice about Dr. Virkler is he smiles a lot. He laughs a lot. Were you always this way?

MARK: No. I was very, very stuck in the mud and very sober, and very control-oriented. And when I began to journal and use vision, and I saw Jesus, he was laughing hilariously all the time. And I said, “Lord, you know, I’m so uptight here.” He said, “Mark, relax. I got everything under control. It’s okay.” And he taught me to laugh.

SID: Now actually, I’ve heard from a medical viewpoint, laughing releases chemicals inside the body that heal you.

MARK: It’s absolutely healing, and we as Christians, we need to laugh. A merry heart does good like medicine. It heals our body. So he wants us to be healthy, so he draws us into laughter.

SID: Okay. Tell me again what Jesus said to you and then the four supernatural keys that came from Heaven on how to hear God’s voice. And by the way, is this something for everyone or just special people like you, you’re a minister.

MARK: This is for everybody. All right. I’ve taught it from five year olds up to 92-year-olds. They’ve all heard the voice of God. If they will use these four keys we guarantee them. They will hear the voice of God. And it’s worked for 35 years, all over world on all the continents I’ve taught it on.

SID: Tell me what God told you and what are the four keys.

MARK: All right. So the Lord said, “I’m going to teach you to hear my voice.” So he took me to Habakkuk 2:1 and 2. Now Habakkuk is a prophet, he could hear the voice of God.

SID: That’s what makes him a prophet.

MARK: That’s what makes him a prophet. And so he says, “I’m going to my guard post,” which means, go have a quiet place to get alone with God. And I think all of us knew that was important. All right. So I quiet myself down. And then Habakkuk said, that was key number one, “Just quiet yourself down” with some soft soaking music. Great way to do it, I mean, King David, he used soft music in the background 24/7, just beautiful worship music. It’s a great way to quiet yourself down. And then Habakkuk said, “I’m going to keep watch to see what the Lord is going to speak.” And I said, what? You should be saying, I’m going to listen to hear what the Lord is going to speak. I mean, because what are you trying to see? I mean, when I’m trying to hear God’s voice, I’m not trying to see anything, I’m trying to hear it. And the Lord said, “Mark, vision is a very important part of prayer and you should take the eyes of your heart, and you should pray over them like Paul prayed. I prayed that the eyes of your heart would be enlightened. And you should fix them on Jesus, and you should see Jesus present with you.”

SID: Wait a second. This sounds like visualization, which is a new age concept.

MARK: Right, exactly and it might also be a biblical concept. You just never know.

SID: Give me a scripture.

MARK: Well how about Acts 2:25, David. David says, “I behold the Lord always in my presence. He’s at my right hand and I will not be shaken.” And in Psalm 16:8, where he’s quoting that from, he says, “I have set the Lord at my right hand.” So that means, he took and decided to picture the Lord right there.

SID: And just because the new age copies biblical things doesn’t mean we should throw the baby out with the dirty bath water.

MARK: Well the fact they copied that means it was worth enough to copy. You don’t copy one-dollar bills. You only copy twenties and fifties. So I don’t throw anything out to be copied. I find what’s the bill value, let’s do it. We say, “A picture is worth a thousand words.” So maybe if I see Jesus here next to me, it might have a thousand times more power to impact my life than just thinking he’s next to me. And so I’m going to turn my theology into pictures.

SID: I have to ask you, what does Jesus look like when you visualize him?

MARK: Well for me, he has long flowing white robes. He’s got sandals on his feet, very gentle, loving countenance, eyes that twinkle, big smile on his face. That’s what I normally see. All right. And when I first started seeing vision, I only saw him from the shoulders on down.

SID: I was going to ask you that because many people have never had a vision of Jesus. In fact, most believers never have. So you kind of started without even seeing his face.

MARK: That’s right. You know, and then after a week or two, I did begin to see his eyes twinkling and a big smile on his lips and other people have told me the same thing. They start with his shoulders on down, and as you move into intimacy and you use the eyes of your heart purposefully, more appears. And the more intensely you look, the more you see, too. And you know, we define this as godly imagination. We say, godly imagination is picturing those things that God says are so. So I’m not afraid of godly imagination. I have a definition for it. If God says Jesus is with me, I can picture that and then I can do more than that. I can say, Holy Spirit, take over this scene. Bring it alive so it’s more than a godly imagination. Let me step into a flowing vision. And as I release it, I step into a flowing vision and I step from a godly imagination into a vision, and I do it all the time. And everyone who is listening can do that every single day of their life, and they can see vision all the time.

SID: Now Mark talks about something that is so intriguing to me, because I’ve heard a lot of other people talk about this, and that is, he can go into the Throne Room of God for godly wisdom. How would you like some godly wisdom on some of the things going on in your life right now? Tell me about this going into the Throne Room.

MARK: Well a prophet said to me, “Well why don’t you ask the Lord where he wants to meet you.” And I said, okay. And I said, “Lord, where do you want to meet me?” He said, “I’d like to meet you in Heaven.” I said, “Why?” He said, “Because I live there.” And I said, “Well of course, you want to show me around your home, right?” And so it’s a matter of selecting a different picture. So instead of me deciding to picture of Jesus at the Sea of Galilee, I decided to picture him in Heaven there with him, because I am in Heaven. So are you. We are seated with Christ in heavenly places.

SID: That’s right. The scripture says that we’re in two places at one time.

MARK: Exactly.

SID: We’re here and according to Ephesians, we’re there.

MARK: So, exactly. And so I can either think that I’m seated with him or I can see myself seated with him. If it’s okay to think it, it’s okay to see it.

SID: Tell me about, and because I really relate to his, seeing all the things that are coming on this earth right now. Just hearing the news every day, you can get to be a very negative person, and this is what happened to Mark. What did you do about that?

MARK: I was looking at Washington, D.C. in my mind’s eye and I was saying, I don’t like what I see. I’m very, I see a lot of evils and improper behavior.

SID: You don’t have to tell us. We all see the same thing.

MARK: And I was full of anger at what I saw, and I was full of fear. And I thought, well those aren’t gifts of the Holy Spirit, those aren’t fears of the Holy Spirit. There’s something wrong. And so I said, “Lord, what’s wrong?” He said, “Well you’re looking at Washington, D.C. and you don’t see me there.” I said, “You’re right. I just see politicians.” He said, “Well you’re not seeing truth, because the truth is I’m everywhere.” I said, “Oh you did mention that somewhere in the Bible, did you.” And so obviously, I’m looking at a picture that contains a lie, which is Jesus isn’t there. So let’s throw it out and get a picture that contains the truth. And I said, “Jesus, where are you in Washington?” And this is my morning devotions, and I looked for a vision, and a picture floats into my mind of Jesus enthroned on a throne, above Washington, D.C., his flowing robes flowing down over Congress and the White House, his Glory streaming down over Congress and the White House. And he said in my heart, he said, “Mark, I rule in Washington, D.C.”

SID: I like that picture. When we come back, we’ll get the rest of these supernatural keys.

Sid:  What about you are you lukewarm? Well you keep listening to this show this week and I believe the anointing that the manifest presence of the living God is just going to pour out of this radio and just grab you and touch you and revitalize you, revive you; cause you to stop being so backslidden and come to your senses because we’re living in the most exciting the greatest time in the history of planet earth. Where the world is trying to figure out what’s going to happen next? What’s going on with this terrorism? What’s happening to the world? What’s going to happen to our economy? God’s got it all under control and we’re coming into the greatest move of God’s Spirit in the history of mankind.

The exact timing as to where we are right now can be found in the Prophet Joel. In the Prophet Joel we read about a time in history that looks very much like today. Starting in the third chapter “For behold in those days and at that time when I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem I will also gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. And I will enter into judgment with them there on account of My people, My heritage Israel whom they have scattered among the nations. They have also divided up My land.” There’s a time in history God says where Jews will return to a land called Israel and the nations will be very jealous. These same nations that were used by the devil to scatter the Jews will be very jealous when the Jews return to Israel. God says “I am very upset with what you have done to My people My Jewish people.” God says “I’m very upset because you have divided up My land.” So when you see the world trying to muscle Israel into dividing up the land that God gave to the Jewish people and some of you perhaps are not aware of that.

Let me read a couple of scriptures because there are so many. Turn to Genesis chapter 13 right now let’s establish what God just said there in Joel. Genesis chapter 13 verse 14 “And the Lord said to Abram after Lot had separated from him ‘Lift your eyes now and look from the place where you are now. Northward, southward, eastward, and westward for all the land which you see I give to you and your descendants forever.’” Forever is a pretty long time.

Take a look at the next chapter the 15^th chapter and this is the great covenant chapter in which God says to Abraham “‘Look at the stars your descendants will be as many as them,’ and Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness.” Then He says in the 7^th verse “I give you this land,” 8^th verse and he said “Lord God how shall I know that I will inherit it?” Then God says “I want you to bring some animals slice them down the middle and we’re going to establish a covenant in reference to the land.” This is an unusual covenant because rather than the 2 parties walking between the 2 animals that have been sliced in half. God doesn’t call for this He literally puts Abraham to sleep and it says in the 17^th verse “There appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between these pieces.” Who was that smoking oven? Who was that burning torch? The same pillar of fire that was moving over the children of Israel, it’s the same fire at Mount Sinai, it’s the fire of the living God. In the 18^th verse this is what the covenant was established on “On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram saying ‘To your descendants I have given this land.’” Then it lists the exact geographical areas.

Now I can go on and on but I think perhaps the best scripture that explains the covenant on the land is found in the 105^th Psalm. It’s kind of like a summary if you turn Psalm 105. Let me read this to you 7^th verse “He is the Lord our God His judgments are in all the earth. He remembers His covenant forever.” The word which He commanded for a thousand generations, the covenant which He made with Abraham and His oath to Isaac, and confirmed it to Jacob for a statute. To Israel for an everlasting covenant saying “To you I will give the land of Canaan as the allotment of your inheritance.”  So how long has He had this covenant? He says “A thousand generations.” If you don’t like that the verse before says “His covenant is forever.” There is no way you can change that.

Now going back to Joel you can see that God says… makes a little more sense when I read it now after having read those scriptures to you. God says “I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat (that’s Joel 3:2) and I will enter into judgment with them there (why?) on account of My people, My heritage Israel whom they have scattered among the nations they have also divided up My land.”

You know in the New Testament we find that same prophetic word from Jesus. Yeshua says in Matthew chapter 25 verse 40 “That the nations will be divided up just as a shepherd separates goat from sheep.” It’s very easy to tell the difference between a goat and a sheep, that’s how nations will be judged in the last days.

By the way, a goat nation is one that has a mind of its own like a goat, and a sheep nation follows the shepherd. There will be one single dividing issue, just as Joel says it’s on account of My heritage Israel and dividing up the land, that will be the area of judgment. Matthew says one area of judgment will be involved whether a nation is a goat nation, cursed by God, or a sheep nation blessed by God.

It says in Matthew 25:40 “As you have done unto the least of these my brethren you’ve done unto Me.” The word brethren if you look that up in the Greek it says “From the womb.” So Yeshua is saying “As you have done unto the least of these My brothers from the womb, the physical Jew, you’ve done unto Me.” So how does that all fit in? Well look at Genesis 12:3 God says “I will bless those who bless the Jewish people, and I will curse those who curse them.”

I believe that when you see the United States muscling Israel dividing up the land that God has given unconditionally forever to His ancient chosen people you’re going to see the blessings of God lift from this country. But at the same time that you see the nations trying to muscle Israel into dividing up the land you’re going to see the greatest outpouring of God’s Spirit in history.

It says “At that time when the land is divided there is a going to be an outpouring of God’s Spirit.” He calls it the former rain and the latter rain. Here it is in the 2^nd chapter of Joel the 23rd verse “Be glad then you children of Zion rejoice in the Lord Your God for He has given you a former rain faithfully and He will cause the rain to come down for you, the former rain AND the latter rain in the first month.” Rain is a type of the Holy Spirit and when the former rain and latter rain for the first time in history come down together in the first month this is what will happen. The 24^th verse, “The threshing floor shall be full of wheat and the vats shall overflow with new wine and with oil, and I will restore to you the years that the swarming locusts has eaten.”

Then it says in the 28^th verse of that same chapter where it’s going to start. “It shall come to pass afterward that I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh.” Oh God pour out Your Spirit we’re so thirsty, we’re so thirsty for that double rain the former rain and the latter rain! Then it says “Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy. Your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions.” Who is the you? Who is your sons and daughters? Who is your old men? Who is your young men? Who’s He talking to in the prophet Joel? The physical Jew.

So let’s put this together now, when you see the world gang up on Israel, when you see the world trying to divide up the land of Israel there will be an outpouring, a double rain if you will, the former rain and the latter rain coming down at once. There will be young Jews and old Jews supernaturally coming to the Lord.

Then in that same Prophet Joel listen to this in the 3^rd chapter “Multitudes, multitudes, multitudes, I say there are multitudes in the Valley of Decision for the day of the Lord is near in the Valley of Decision.” We’re going to see…

You know sometimes you pray “God nothing seems to be going on in my life right now.” This is the time to prepare do you remember the parable of the 10 virgins, 5 wise and 5 foolish? This is time for you to be wise you need some extra oil for what’s coming on this earth and when you have that extra oil you’ll be just the 91^st Psalm. “With long life I will satisfy you and show you My salvation. No disease is going to come near you.” What a wonderful Psalm but you need the word and you need the oil. You need the 2 rivers coming together, the 2 rains coming together, the word and the anointing coming together, and the Jew and the Gentile coming together for the last lap. God always reserves His champion for the last lap of a relay race.

Sid: My guest by way of telephone is Jonathan Maracle.  I’m speaking to him at the Tyendinaga Territory. Jonathan on yesterday’s broadcast I just basically touched upon this I want to understand it better. Our country, the United States of America, performed, and the only word that I have and the same word for Hitler’s Holocaust, atrocities on your people. And as I understand generational curses these curses continue until someone stronger can break these curses. Just for those that aren’t aware would you just in a minute or two tell me some of the low-lights of what happened to your people.

Jonathan: Well we can start right at the very beginning at 1492 when Christopher Columbus came and met the Arawak people. And when they came and they greeted him at the shores they were so kind and so loving to him they brought him gifts. And anything he asked for or showed he wanted he got for him, they shared anything they had. And his statement written in his journal said “These people are so kind and so caring and he said “Give me 50 good men and I’ll subjugate the whole bunch of them.” And then he went on he noticed that 2 of the people had an earring, one person had an earring and another person had a necklace of a little bit of gold in it. And so he immediately thought that they had hidden treasure. So he told them he said “You have to go and every 3 months you have to come back with X amount of gold and if your don’t have this amount of gold I’m going to cut your hands off.” And so he began to cut the hands off of these beautiful people who were willing to give anything to him. So the whole nation of Arawak people gave up their lives almost 55,000 people in fear they were dropping dead because they were so afraid of what was taking place, 100’s and 100’s of them had their hands cut off. And it went on, as it has gone on, through the trail of tears where our people our elders would drop dead by the way side and elders are the most precious of our people that their honored and we honor the experience of their lives but their lives were taken from them and the children. And you know we’ve had massacres were they’ve gone in and killed on mass all of our women and children and men were away on hunting parties or something. That’s what happened with Geronimo’s family, and that’s why Geronimo became such a staunch adversary of the United States because he came home to home and his children and his wife were all murdered in their home.  This is the kind of thing that was perpetrated and what our history books in America they use the word forced they say that the First Nations people were forced westward. But they don’t every explain what they mean by forced. Well forced meant with a heart to annihilate, with a heart to destroy and what happened to our people. The statistics that I was able to come up with when the white man first came to North America they were at least 10 million at the very least 10 million First Nation’s people in North America. And by the year 1899 there was little over 200,000 First Nation’s people left in all of America.

Sid: What is your understanding  about these curses? What affect do they have on our nation? And how can they be reversed?

Jonathan: Well Numbers chapter 14 it tells me that the sins of the fathers comes down onto the children.  And I believe that the sin is perpetual it keeps going through the generations until it is stopped as you said earlier. And I believe that blood in the land from the sins that have happened it cries out for something to change. And only 3 weeks ago when I was in Delaware in Lewis, Delaware. I was here with Dutch people who were the first settlers from Europe into that area of the country and I had Nanticoke who are the original inhabitants of that region. God…these are both people that are Christian that have given their hearts to the Lord and some of the Nanticoke weren’t, but these people came together with a heart to see things broken to see this changed. And we went to the massacre sight and we took an arrow and we had to leaders of the white church and the white leaders there and we had the leaders of the Nanticoke people grab the arrow of both ends and break it together signifying the breaking of the curse that has come down between them over the generations. And then we had the Dutch people stand in the middle and then we had the Nanticoke leader who was a Christian and other Nanticoke people and then we stood and we prayed and released the Dutch people from the issues of the past that had taken place in that spot.  And then, and then the Dutch and all of the other people prayed over the Nanticoke. Then embrace one another and then we took communion together over that spot and we claimed that that day the generational curse that the enemy had proclaimed was broken And we have seen in different place where this has taken place many massacre places where this has gone to and we’re seeing freedom, we’re seeing lives, we’re seeing people who were once adversaries as Christians turning and saying “My God what have I been doing?” You know the Bible tells us that a body needs to have all of its parts functioning and the body has been broken, it’s been separated and the First Nations People are a part of that and the ones of us who are Christians have always felt like we’ve been on the outside but now God is making away for us to be engrafted back in to that olive…to the trunk and we believe that this is part of our destiny to be a people who will be the generational curse beyond my people. We have cursed the curse shame and the loss of respect for our own lives and our own selves. And so we have been a people who have walked in this and it has been a most…everywhere you go alcohol, the highest rates of suicide in the entire earth are among the First Nations People.

Sid: And yet with the reparations that your people received and the gambling casinos and things like that on the outside looking in it looks like they’re prosperous financially, but that’s not what happening to them.

Jonathan: No, no it’s not that’s a false prosperity. In our hearts and the hearts of my people there has been a loss of identity we’ve been circumcised from who God created us to be. Because when God was up in heaven he wasn’t looking down at my people and going “Oops I made a mistake when I created He created the First Nations people.” He loves us just like He loves us just like He loves anybody else. And out people don’t know that, an so we believe that Jesus is the White Man’s God that’s what most First Nations traditional people think that Jesus is the White Man’s God. And so what God does is He gives me the anointing and the ability to go in to these places and to say “Jesus is not the White Man’s God Jesus was a tribal Man, Jesus was a Jew, Jesus was a man who understood what persecution was, He walked under the persecution of the Roman Empire.”  I said “There’s no man on earth more positioned to be the Savior of our people than Jesus Christ.” And the traditional people will turn and they’ll begin to listen because they’ve been very bitter.

Sid: But you know I see such parallels of what you’re talking about and Jewish people and between what your talking about and Afro-Americans.

Jonathan: Yeah.

Sid: I mean I see these parallels.  What are you thinking Jonathan when you play your flute and the song from your CD “Song of the Creator?” What’s going on inside you when you’re playing this?

Jonathan: It’s a prophetic scene that’s going on, it’s a prophetic thing that says “I want to see restoration to my people, I want to see alcoholism and suicide and drug abuse and physical abuse and mental abuse be taken away from my people and replaced with the love and the uncompromised love of Jesus Christ because my people are hurting and their dying.  Excerpt from “Rise Up Mighty Warrior”

Sid: My guest by way of telephone is Bob Griffin I’m speaking to him in Charlotte, North Carolina where he’s ministering in a church.  Bob moves in the gifts of prophecy, he is a prophet. And on yesterdays broadcast I would have to say Bob it thrilled me when the Spirit of God spoke through you that God is turning the hearts of His Gentile Christians to Israel and the Jew.  What is this going to mean in your opinion?

Bob: Well if you’re asking what is God getting ready to do I think that He’s getting ready in fact I know He is He’s getting ready to pour out His Spirit on all flesh.  You know it was prophesied in Joel that during that time when there was destruction that was dry ground, there was no harvest the barns were broken down, the store houses were broken the seed was shriveling under the clouds everything was withered the animals were groaning.  During that time Joel asked the question he said “The day of the Lord is at hand and it should come as destruction from the Almighty.” And then he said something interesting.  He said “Is not the food cut off from before our eyes?” And so he’s looking at the natural picture of the landscape but we know that it’s a spiritual portrait so we’re saying during the time of drought, during the time of destruction, during the time when the Lord is coming and there’s terror all around he’s saying “Is not the food cut off from our eyes?”  He’s literally saying where are the dreams and the visions I’m not seeing anything every things dry and in shambles and he’s calling for people to repent; he’s calling for them to cry out to God; He’s calling for them to lament and gird themselves and he’s crying out for the Lord because the fires devouring everything because there’s terror and destruction all around. And at the very moment that he’s seeing all of that he’s saying we need some water and that’s when he begins to prophase that the outpouring of the Spirit of the Lord is to come. And so we’re in that time right now we can’t deny that we look at kingdoms against kingdom, we see that the earthquakes, famine, pestilence.  We see everything that’s happening out there right now and we’re saying “Where is God? Where is the supernatural God, where is the God of Gideon?   Where is everything?”  I believe that this is a call in the Spirit to be refreshed by refreshing God.  And as we begin to worship Him I believe He’s getting ready to pour out on us and that’s when He says “Your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions I’ll pour out My Spirit on my men servants, my maid servants, your children will prophesy.” When? “When you see all of this destruction around and all of this terror that’s when I want you to come close to Me and I’ll give you food for your eyes.” So I believe that God is saying this is the time of the outpouring He’s just designed for us to have a hunger for Him.  And maybe the time of destruction we lean towards God even more.

Sid: You said that the Lord showed you something would occur in June.

Bob: Yes

Sid: Do you have any insight as to what or how bad it will be?

Bob: Well I know that the Lord is telling me that there’s going to be a great shaking in the Middle East. So I can’t deny that that something that he’s already shown me.  I know that He’s told me that it’s going to have to do with Saddam Hussein and that we should look up during that period of time.  And so when He tells me now here we are saying “Embrace Me for the storm.” I believe that there are things that are getting ready to happen that we need to know about and the only way to know about that is to have Him foretell and the only way for that to happen is for intimacy.  You know that word intimacy is: In-To-Me-See. when you get close enough to Me then you’ll begin to see. And I believe that the outpouring of the Spirit comes out of that relationship as we water Him He waters us. So if we want to know the future and what’s about to happen we need to be in a position to be watered by the Spirit of the Lord to know what’s getting ready to happen out there. While we may not know all of the details I believe that the Lord will reserve those for specific times and specific people.  But I believe that we’re getting ready to know in this world that He really is in charge.

Sid: On your 4 audio cassette series titled “Dreams and Visions,” the anointing that God has put on you causes people that previously did not have dreams and visions to start having them as they sit under your ministry. But what does someone do when they have a dream from God and it’s in a code type of language what is the first thing that they should do?

Bob: Well I would just say get the tapes because some of it’s covered in there because the Lord does have types and shadows and mysteries.  You know it’s interesting when Jesus was talking when Yeshua’s talking in Mark chapter 4 He began talking to His disciples He said “I don’t speak except in a parable” but He said “To my disciples I reveal those things.” And so we begin to see that in Mark 4 where you press in to understand the parable He begins to give you even a greater dimension the 30, 60,100 fold.  The disciples came in to understand the parable and all of a sudden Jesus is telling them mysteries and He’s telling them revelation.  And so parables, mysteries and revelations and so if the Lord gives us a dream and we press into Him then He begins to tell us even more than what we saw before. But most people come to a point where they have a dream and they go “I don’t understand this and I don’t have time for this and so they don’t spend that time in intimacy and they end up throwing it away. It could be the very important direction for their life that they’ve been crying out for.  I believe that it develops an intimacy and I believe that the anointing will help to teach them. The word says in 1^st John 2:27 that there is anointing that inside of us that will teach us what we need to know.   And that we don’t have any need of any one to teach us but the anointing will teach us as we abide in him.  And so there’s an anointing inside but there’s an outpouring externally and when those 2 are combined together it just causes us to run to Him in relationship. When we run to Him in relationship we see things that we couldn’t see and we understand things and will perceive things.  I walk into rooms and I just know things and people that have been associated with our ministry when that anointing comes on them I’ve had people listen to tapes in cars and all of a sudden a Spirit of prophecy is hitting them because they’re listening to it under the anointing.

Sid: Alright give me an example.

Bob: Alright well we’ve got some tape series out and one person in fact we’ve had testimony after testimony, but one was driving down the road and the Spirit of prophecy hit them they literally stopped and began to prophecy to themselves and prophecy to circumstances and all of the answers that they were looking for were pouring right out of them.  He said “He who comes to me and believes that I Am he who comes to me out of their belly will flow rivers of living water.  He who believes in Me as the scriptures said.” So it’s inside of us we’re looking for the anointing to release what is already inside of us. And when you come under the anointing there’s a rod of iron that is given to those that overcome.  He said in Psalm 2 and Revelation “I will give to you a rod of iron for breaking open clay vessels.” The anointing is that rod of iron that rod of truth that breaks open the clay vessel which is our flesh so that the treasure that is inside of us can come out.  And many times we have God locked up inside of us we don’t know how to let Him out but when you get under the anointing all of a sudden things start coming out of you that you knew were there and present but you just didn’t know how to get it out.

Sid: Give me an example of how God operates with you in this gift.

Bob: Well I walk into a room and I’ll just begin to know things about people and I’ll begin to speak it out and it doesn’t matter if they’re a Christian in church or whatever I just know things. And you know the church has taught us that prophecy is for believers but I want to submit to the body that that we all have a measure of faith that’s been given to us.  I prophesy to people in airports and restaurants and taxicabs and just about anywhere. I walked into a specific room one day didn’t know this girl at all and I began to speak to her and as I began to speak to her all of a sudden I said “Do you have an aunt whose in the hospital?” And she said “Yes, as a matter of fact I do.”  And I said “Has she been involved in a fire?” And she “Yes she has.”  She was just amazed she wasn’t a believer in any way that anybody knew at all and she said “This is really strange are you a psychic?” I said “Well, I’m not a psychic but I believe that I’m being shown something.” I went to bed that night at about 10 minutes after 4 in the morning I woke up and began to intercede for a woman in the hospital who I knew was dying.” That lasted probably 25 minutes or so and when it was all over I knew that she would live and I knew that she would know the Lord.  That was on a Thursday I didn’t see that young girl at work until the following Monday.  On the following Monday I had already spoken to her and I said “Look I had an experience last night that I believe your Aunt died in the hospital and I believe that she died and I believe that she’s going to know the Lord.”  And she said “Man that is really strange, Friday we’re off Saturday I don’t see her Monday she comes running up to me she tells me I got to tell you something she said “At 10 minutes after 4:00 she said my Aunt died in the hospital it took them nearly 30 minutes to revive her she said who are you?” I said I’m the guy that was sent into her life to pray.  I believe that God wants us to reveal the supernatural on this earth and it’s not just limited to the prophets but it’s limited to those are outside of the prophetic realm.  God wants us to come to a place where we see and hear and perceive and understand. And to whosoever receives a prophet in the name of a prophet receives a profits reward.  And so anybody that comes underneath this anointing sees what the prophet sees so the anointing is there to open us up. Sid the anointing teaches us inside it says in 1^st John 2:27 that anointing is inside of us and it teaches us and as he’s saying that to let that he literally saying to let that unfold.  I walked up to a young girl one day and didn’t know why I was getting to say what I was going to say she was just somebody out in the parking lot where I worked.  And I heard the Lord say “God to her.”  But I said “Lord I don’t know what to say.”  And I heard one thing “Grandmother.” As I began walking towards her God says “Bring her home.” So I walked up to this young girl and when I got within a few feet of her the Spirit of prophecy hit me because the anointing teaches us. And I said to her “The Lord says that He is desiring for you to come back home your grandmother’s been praying for you.”  She said “Are you a prophet?”  I said “Well, I don’t know what I am but I’m praying for you.” And she said “Well if you were a prophet you would know that there’s at least 3 things that are holding me back from coming to God.” And I didn’t know what to say at that point and I suddenly turned to her and said “What if I told you what they were?” She said “Well I would die right here on the spot.” And I said “Well I’m going to pray and God’s going to reveal it.” So I went away and I began to pray.  As I began to pray I said “Lord I need some help here.”  I prayed for a young man that I worked with at work laid hands on him he gets filled with the Holy Spirit and that night he has a dream.  He dreams that this young girl is getting in a car, this young girl that I’m ministering to, she’s getting into a black limonene with her roommate and it looks like they’re with a pimp. They’re driving down the road and he sees them turn and kiss one another.  He come comes to me that next day and he says “Bob I had a dream after you prayed for me and this was the dream and I don’t have any idea what it means.” And I said “Well I do.” So he said “What does it mean?” And I said I’m going to keep on praying and I went to the Lord and I said “Lord I’m having experience here that this young girl Shanda is in a relationship a lesbian relationship with her roommate and there’s prostitution involved.  Suddenly the Lord shows me that she’s almost in an adulterous affair.  So Tuesday and Wednesday go by Friday morning I wake up and the Holy Spirit said “I want you to go to work early today.” And I said “Lord I don’t really want to go to work at all let alone go in early but I went to work early and when I got there this young girl comes running across the parking lot an hour before work she and I meet in this parking lot she didn’t know I was coming and I didn’t know that she was going to be there and she came up to me and she said “Could I get in the car?” And I said “Yes.” And she said “What are the 3 things that are holding me back?”  And I said “Well Shanda let’s pray.”  And I said “First of all you’re in a lesbian relationship with your roommate and your roommate is a prostitute and you’re in a adulterous affair and the Lord gave me the man’s first name and last name because I saw him in a vision and I knew who the man was.”  And her mouth fell open and she said “How did you know that?” And I said “Because I prayed to the Father.”

Sid: Bottom line what happened to her?”

Bob:  The bottom line is that she came back to the Lord.

Sid: My guest spoke in Pakistan his audience 99% Muslim over 100,000 received the Lord.  Unbelievable the times were living in but in scripture it says “The Jew requires a sign.” But Peter I have an idea that Muslim’s require a sign also. My guest Peter Gammons Pastor of Cathedral of Faith in Orlando, Florida.  I would imagine that Muslims require signs also.

Peter: I think that this is a very important message for the Church of Jesus Christ in America and across the world.  Because we have a form of Christianity Paul says “When I came to you I came not with word only but in demonstration of the Spirit and Power that your faith should not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.” Most preachers would have to say we came not in demonstration and power but in word only. And even meant to the Christian TV and radio I see they talk about miracles but we don’t see it.

Sid: Well let me ask you a question because it’s really just you and I and just a few of our Mishpochah eaves dropping. Let’s take one of the greatest evangelists the world has ever known Billy Graham.

Peter: Hm.

Sid: And he is not known for signs and wonders but there certainly is a presence of God for souls to come into the Kingdom.

Peter: Yes.

Sid: I’m sure there’s a great deal of prayer, but as I read the New Testament the definition of an evangelist is signs and wonders follow, so what’s going on there?

Peter: Let me make a comment about that I think first of all Billy Graham is in my opinion one of the most incredible men that have ever lived I’m full of admiration for him I try to copy his lifestyle with the integrity that he has a preacher and I absolutely love the man.  But what we need to understand is that 90% in my opinion 90 percent of evangelism in America or in much of the world is reaching semi-religious people. In other words, they were raised in a Christian home, they had a Christian background they knew the basis’s of the gospel they backslid. You look at Dr. Graham’s crusades and most of the people that come there have some knowledge of Christianity or the faith and they’re coming back to Christ or their parents were saved but they never got saved but they knew that they should have got saved.  And it’s reaching semi-religious people. Now we need to understand the unreached world is one of two things either heathen, you know they’re sitting there with a beer in their hand every night they have no knowledge of Christianity and they’re totally unreached by evangelicalism as it is at the moment they need miracles to shake them into realize that there is a Jesus. And the other percent that are unsaved are the religious people of the world today. We’ve got Buddhist, Hindus, Muslims, Tribal people they will never be reached just by preaching “Come and give your life to Jesus.” The evangelists have tried for years and it never works.

Sid: Could you picture reaching large numbers of Jewish people without miracles it would be impossible.

Peter: Yeah the religious people of the world they need signs and wonders to convince them that Jesus is the one that they should be following.

Sid:  And yet I had lunch the other day with a medical doctor who is a Christian and he made the statement to me “I have never in all of my years I’ve heard a lot of talk I’ve heard people say they have miracles but I have never seen a verified miracle.”

Peter: That’s tragic isn’t it?

Sid: It really is I sent him a video right away but…

Peter: Let me just say I believe that is one of the reason’s God called us to move our ministry to the United States of America. I was shocked when I came here how much talk about miracles there are and how many we see. My own TV programs are packed with deaf and dumb and blind and people paralyzed healed and things like this. Because I’ve spent nearly 30 years out on the mission field reaching Muslims tribal people, Hindus, Buddhists with incredible miracles.

Sid: Now do you have similar results in America that you have in these other countries?

Peter: I haven’t done crusades across America at the time that we’re doing this interview. I believe that’s one of the reason’s God sent us here and I’m 100% convinced will see the same type of miracles. God gave me a sign early in the ministry. I said “I want a miracle a verifiable miracle that cannot be denied to take place something that will convince the skeptics.”  And God gave me the healing of deaf and dumb the healing of the deaf mute. And what I do in our crusades on the second night of the crusades the first night I’ll tell people bring them tomorrow night and if you’ve never seen instant miracle then come.  And then on the second night of our crusades I always line up the deaf and dumb sometimes we have 50, 60 people many of them deaf from birth. Some of them one man a little while back he worked as a mechanic and molten metal burned his whole ear out. And when I put my finger in your ear I said “You don’t need your hearing restored you need a whole new eardrum you need everything created.” And this is a whole different subject and I’ll try not to get sidetracked on that, sometimes I pray for God to turn up the volume, sometimes it needs a creative miracle.  And this man needed a creative miracle he just had a hole in the side of his head and my finger disappeared inside of his head that’s another one that I could get sidetracked on but I’ll try not to. Jesus put His fingers in their ears and commanded them to come opened. And I don’t know any other preacher that does that but I found that when I put my fingers in their ear and command their ears to be opened that their ears just popped open.

Sid: But what about people like you’re describing that’s just a hole that there is no ear, that there is no eardrum. Have you actually seen an ear recreated?

Peter: Many times! What happened as I had my finger in his ear I said “Lord would you recreate this ear you’re the creator. And I felt…it felt like worms crawling around in his head I never felt anything so disgusting in my life.  Suddenly I felt like movement taking place inside of his head until my finger was pushed out of his head and when I put it back again it was blocked God had recreated a whole ear inside of his head and he could hear.

Sid:  Now I know what affect this would have on the audience that was watching this but what affect did that miracle have on you?

Peter: I’m just used to it to be honest with you I’m more…

Sid: You remind me of Kathryn Kuhlman. Kathryn Kuhlman doctors used to go up to her and used to say “All of these people are being healed of arthritis but that’s just standard in my ministry.” And the doctors would say “But don’t you realize there’s no cure for arthritis?”

Peter: Yeah I expect it to happen and my wife will verify because she’s in our crusades 98% of the people that have been deaf and dumb in our crusades and there are other miracles as well that were healed but that particular sign are instantly healed.

Sid: Is it usually a demon that causes the blockage of hearing or could it be other things?

Peter: Sometimes it is again, again its God turning up the volume because as people get older sometimes it is not as fine tuned as it was before.  Sometimes it’s a creative miracle that’s needed, sometimes things have been damaged or broken or lost or whatever. Sometime it’s a spirit of infirmity. Many times when Jesus commanded the blind eyes to be open and deaf to hear and dumb to speak he rebuked spirits of infirmity. We need to realize that there are literally demons of infirmity, demons whose whole job in life is to cause pain.  And again I don’t want to get sidetracked on this one but it’s worth throwing this in the whole realm of the occult some people say “Well you know there have been healings and things.” What you need to understand is that the devil causes pain he can’t heal God alone is the healer.  The devil can take the pain off you if I squeezed your arm it would hurt and then if I released it I haven’t healed you but I’ve stopped putting the pressure on.

Sid: Peter on yesterday’s broadcast we have you baptized in the Holy Spirit wanting to pray in unknown tongues but not knowing exactly what to do.  You told me when we went off the air a few words came out but what happened?

Peter: Well as I said the preacher said “Have you ever spoke in tongues?” I said “I’ve never heard of it before.  And later on I read through my Bible and got a hold of 1^st Corinthians 12 and 1 Corinthians 40 and not a single verse underlined and the rest of the Bible was fully underlined. And that’s how a lot of Christians are they don’t understand the Holy Spirit. And so I went home and I tried to speak in tongues and I thought the Lord was going to come and take over and I was just going to suddenly get this whole language. But the Bible says “They spoke in tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.” The Holy Spirit gave the utterance but they had to do the speaking if you don’t move your tongue and open your lips you’re not going to speak in tongues. And so I went along to a service and there was this other preacher and I said “Would you pray for me to receive the gift of tongues?” And he said “Have you ever spoken in tongues?” And I said I said “Well I don’t know.” And he said “Say whatever you said and he said “That’s a beautiful language.” And I said, “Is it?” And I had no problem after that but people say “Well what if I make a mistake?” Well how are you going to know if you make a mistake you know they haven’t printed a dictionary of tongues the only way you’re going to know is by trusting God. And God gave me this key that has helped 1000’s of people to receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit and that is this “Instead of trusting your ability to make mistakes trust God’s ability to make sure that you don’t make a mistake.”  Because He’s the only one that’s going to understand it anyway that’s why the devil hates tongues, that’s why he opposes them in the Evangelical church because he can’t understand it he can’t intervene. Sometimes when people in tongues it’s a private communication with God and the devil hates that and that’s why he oppose it.  When I pray in English my prayers are tainted by my own views and sometimes they’re my fleshing desire. When I pray in tongues it’s the Holy Spirit praying through me so it’s perfect prayer so that’s the thing.  Some people say “Well do I have to pray in tongues?” When someone says to me “Do I have to speak in tongues?” I know they don’t understand it because if they did understand it they’d say “Please can I speak in tongues?”

Sid:  Peter now you’re baptized in the Holy Spirit but you had another power encounter when an elderly man that had been under the ministry of perhaps a woman that had the greatest healing ministry in modern times Katherine Kuhlman came up to you and what happened?

Peter: Yeah what happened was I went along to this service I was just a very young man and I was in jeans and a tee-shirt I didn’t look like preacher potential.  And when I arrived at the service this woman said to me “Peter.”  I said “Do I know you?” She said “No you don’t know me God sent me here I live a long way away I got a taxi to bring me here because I don’t have a car and she said “He sent me here to give you a message and the message is this you’ll take My healing message out to the world.”  And I said “Do I know you?” And she said No the Lord said he would show me who Peter was and now I’ve seen you and I know your Peter.” And I said “Yes I am.” And she said “You’ll take my healing message, My healing power to the world.” And she got into a taxi and she drove off and I thought “Strange woman.” I went into the service and they were singing “To God be the glory great things He has done.” I sat down in the middle of the crowd and the preacher walked and without saying or doing anything and halfway through this hymn he suddenly said “You boy come here.”  And I was terrified I thought I must have done something wrong and God was going to tell everybody. And so I went forward as he laid hands on me he said “You will take my healing message and my healing power to the world and prophesied the same words that this woman had said as I entered the building.  I fell under the power of the Spirit 5 times and kept trying to get up and gone down again. And what I didn’t know was he’d received the anointing from his friend Kathryn Kuhlman just before she died and he believed that he was going to be with the Lord and the Lord had told him that night to pass that anointing on.

Sid: Hmm. Peter we’re out of time.

Sid: My guest John McTernan I’m talking to him about his brand new book “Israel the Blessing or the Curse.” This book has keys to what God is doing at this strategic time in history. John traces not only the historical order of what’s going on to get us into what’s called the Palestinian Israeli situation. Historically you’ll understand it for the first time, biblically you’ll understand it for the very first time, but the spiritual laws that are triggered very few people understand this. For instance, we found out this week that the worst natural disaster in the history of the United States and 100’s of other horrible natural disasters were within 24 hours of the United States making some sort of anti-Jewish or anti-Semitic statement.  I mean you can’t call it coincidence it’s time after time, after time, after time all documented in this book. Let’s talk about the second worst natural disaster in the United States John.

John: Well Sid you’re right the first natural disaster was Hurricane Andrew and that was August of 1992 and I believe I had mentioned it was 30 to 40 billion dollars in destruction like 150,000 homes had been destroyed as a result of that. Now we come to the second greatest disaster and Sid what I have here I’m showing you I’m showing you is a New York Times headlines Monday January 17, 1994 and here we have a picture of Present Bush with President Assad of Syria. President Assad of Syria hated Israel with a passion.  His life seemed to be wanted to go to war with Israel. Now the President met with him in Geneva and the headlines says big bold headlines in New York Times “Assad holds out prospect of normal ties with Israel after talks with Clinton.” Now I happen to be watching the late news that night it was a Sunday night and a little sound bite came on and the President was behind the podium and I had no idea that they were meeting in Geneva so it was kind of a surprise to me. And with a very stern dogmatic voice he said “The Israelis are not going to like this.” No he said “Many Israelis aren’t going to like this but they’re going to have to give up the Golan Heights for peace.”

Sid: And of course the Golan Heights are so strategic to Israel we would be defenseless if we gave up the Golan Heights.

John: Sid I can remember as a youngster we’re talking about in the 50’s I can remember watching the news and periodically you would see news about Israel where the Jews had to go into shelters in Northern Israel because the Syrians had the Golan Heights and they had artillery up there. And to be a Jewish man on tractor farming and they’d be shooting artery trying to kill him or they’d shoot into homes and all of that and that would be on the news.  See the Golan…they would use it was almost like sport it was terrorism but they would fire…the Golan Heights is way high and as you go from the Golan Heights to Sea of Galilee you go to below sea level.  And so when you are in the Golan Heights you can literally see for miles and miles and miles into Israel miles into Israel. And they used to use the Golan Heights to terrorize the Israelis. So the Israelis gained that land well it was their land by covenant the covenant that God has with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob the Golan Heights is a part of it. So after the Six Day War Israel gained that land and they annexed it the Golan Heights is part of Israel. Syria wants the land back. So Assad meets with Clinton, Clinton agrees with the Syrian President that the Israelis are going to have give up land for peace.  Now Sid here is within hours the headline is Los Angeles Times “The Northridge earthquake many die, hurt in 6.6 quake, area freeways buckle, buildings topple.” I went to bed that night and I felt like a heaviness on me when I heard the President say that it was like not only what he said it was the tone this very forceful tone.  It didn’t sit well with me; I went to bed I got up I turned the news on and this is hours later we have the second greatest natural disaster to hit the United States. But this is earthquake is not like any other earthquake Sid, and I’m showing you the headlines
the earthquake was two in one.

Sid: What do you mean?

John: Well normal earthquakes either the land thrusts upwards or it shakes back and forth this one here both occurred at the same time which mystified the scientists.  They can’t explain why it’s literally, they literally say 2 earthquakes occur at the the same time. Two separate distinct earthquakes occurred because there is not other way to explain how the land thrust up and then shook back and forth. That’s why there was so much damage done.

Sid: Isn’t that interesting there’s no way to explain that and then you go with the first natural disaster there’s no way to explain the perfect storm they’re both supernatural!

John: Exactly, exactly the Perfect Storm Sid the weather pattern went 1000 miles the wrong way with a freakish storm known as the Perfect Storm to destroy the President’s home while he was initiating this peace process. Now Sid going back to this earthquake in Los Angeles actually the epic center was Northridge a suburb of Los Angeles. When the experts analyzed it they couldn’t find the fault! Not only was there 2 earthquakes but they couldn’t find the fault it just happened. Isn’t that amazing?

Sid: I think that it’s absolutely phenomenal; I don’t understand why every talk show in America isn’t talking about this. Not only do you trace all of this in your book all of these events that occur every time that the United States is anti- Semitic, and in a previous book you even trace when there is any blatant sin. When the United States does something with or in the United States there’s something big with homosexuality or abortion or pornography.

John: Well yes Sid and the amazing thing is the…I know nothing about Los Angeles, but Northridge it turns out is the pornography capital of the United States. Eighty to 90% of all the video pornography in the United States is made within a 5 mile radius of North-ridge. And here I have an article documenting this. And even one of the pornographers he’s quoted as saying “These religious fanatics think that it’s the Lord’s way to telling us “Hey straighten out your act.” Literally the pornography industry was leveled in that Northridge earthquake. So the Lord in this economy did 2 things we were bullying Israel over the land and our land was touched within hours Sid, literally within hours within 24 hours our land was touched with the 2^nd greatest disaster and the Lord said “While I’m at it I might as well touch the pornography industry.”

Sid: Okay September 11^th I have never heard anyone beyond but you talk about what triggered September 11^th. Something somehow removed the protective shield on America.

John: And I’m going to show you the documentation so you can relate it to your…to the listeners Sid.  Without saying September 11^th is the greatest disaster as far as moneywise that hit the United States.  The calculations is in the l00’s of billions.

Sid: Just lives!

John: In lives about 3000 lives now it was greater than Pearl Harbor about the same size as Pearl Harbor. Tremendous Sid it’s effected the economy, it’s effected the whole psyche of the nation without a doubt. Now Sid what I document in the book I’m going to show you the documentation for it right now. Is we had formed and it’s a little complicated so I’m going to start at the end of it though. We had formed through the President of the United States a policy early in September about the 1^st week of September that we were going to unilaterally recognize a Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as the Capitol. And we were going to put our embassy of this state in East Jerusalem. Now no President had ever done that before. President Clinton had put pressure on Israel at the Camp David meetings remember that in July of 2000.  He had put pressure on Israel which became visible where Israel was to give up East Jerusalem and they were to have joint control over the Temple Mount and they were to dismantle many of the settlements and all of that. So it became obvious at the Camp David that the President of United States behind the scenes had Israel’s arm and was twisting it. And now through President Bush, former President Bush I want you to see this Sid this is dated October 2, 2001 from the Washington Post and this is headlines “The US is set to support Palestinian state.” And what it and I’m going to synopsize this Sid what it was on September 13^th the Secretary of State Colin Powell and I’ll give you his name was going to meet with the Saudi Arabian Ambassador Prince Bandar Bin Sultan.  And he was going to inform him that the official United States policy which we were going to announce at the United Nations general assembly on September 23^rd was that we were going to recognize a Palestinian state. We were going to put out capital…we were going to recognize East Jerusalem as the capital and we were going to put an ambassador in there our ambassador in there. That literally was stopped with 9/11 literally stopped. The policy of the United States was stopped in its tracks the United Nations was cancelled until November. And we at that point retracted or didn’t go forward with the Palestinian State that we were going to unilaterally recognize the Palestinian State.  So within days of our official policy being in cement that we were going to recognize a Palestinian State with East Jerusalem as the Capitol. The same terrorist that were attacking Israel attacked us. The very same, you know Ben Laden, Arafat all of the very same element of terrorist that Israel was being attacked by was attacking the United States now at virtually the exact moment within days of us forming our policy saying that we were going to recognize a Palestinian State.

Sid: You know the thing that’s so amazing to me John is that you trace time after time after time that the judgments hit America when we as a country do something Israel or against the Jewish people within 24 hours. It’s the most amazing thing sometimes almost immediately but there’s another thing that you do that I’ve never heard anyone else do before and that is the parallels between what happens to Israel happens to the United States. I mean when you started showing it to me it’s so blatant…

Sid: Now my guest is red hot for the Messiah he’s another Jewish man that is… I mean literally he is on a mission and the mission he’s on you’d be on a mission too if you found out what he found out. His name is Dr. Dell Sanchez and he found out that there are literally anywhere from 20 to 60 million Sephardic or Spanish Jews scattered throughout the world.  And most of them don’t even know that they’re Jewish and he’s gathered a list of some 6,000 names. There was something as you’re aware of that many of you the Spanish inquisition it was a very dark period of the history of the church in which they forced Jews either to be killed or to convert to Catholicism. But what most people are unaware of is this Spanish inquisition actually went into Mexico and parts of the United States and they would find Jews that fled for their life from Spain and they would kill them and would torture them unless they would quote confess the true faith and recant their Jewish belief and I mean the atrocities that occurred and it’s all been swept under the carpet. But guess what? The day of the Lord is about ready to come; judgment day is really on the scene and if we don’t repent of our sins the sins are upon us.  On yesterdays broadcast Dell we were telling about the fascinating history the Spanish Jews.  The Jews under Solomon actually about 965 BC according to the Bible started making expeditions to Tarshish and you say that that’s Spain.

Dell: Yes, yes I have collaborated with much research as well as to Hebrew encyclopedias Sid that state the fact that Tarshish is Spain.  And not only that but further during the Assyrian exile in 722 BC and later predominately in the return from the exile from Babylon inside 586 around that time era many of the Jews from Babylon preferred not to come back to Jerusalem they went straight to Spain. Then in 70 AD…

Sid: Well that’s a famous year because that’s when the Temple was destroyed and Titus and his Roman legions took over Jerusalem.

Dell: Yes, yes well most all of the secular historians that I have read that are from Spain they themselves believe that Jews founded Spain in 70AD.  Well I say “Thank you very much for acknowledging that but we’ve been there since the days of King David and King Solomon.”  So there is that witness from both secular and sacred historians that point right back to Sephardim that is also Sephardic and also Sephardic Spain founded by Jews from Israel.

Sid: I also find it fascinating that there is a Latin language that’s a mixture of Spanish and Hebrew.

Dell: Oh it’s a beautiful language and I didn’t even know that it was a language to itself because we used to use it when we were growing up and it’s called Ladino not Latino but Ladino with a “d” another word for it is larezmo which is the Hebraic Spanish expression of our own language. It has a lot of beautiful sayings what we call dichos refranes sayings clichés, ways of expressing different words and terms that are really from the Sephardic language Ladino.

Sid: Hm.  Now every school child in America knows one historic date if they don’t know anything else they know 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue.

Dell: Yeah (Laughing.)

Sid: But that was also a historic year in Spain tell me about that.

Dell: Oh my God yes because the day before Columbus he just took off and he sailed to discover, he wasn’t trying to discover America but he did. The day before is the day that the Jews of Spain were expelled, they were the founding Jews were expelled from Spain in 1492. So the point is they were fleeing, Columbus was actually I am convinced he was totally Sephardic Jew or part Sephardic Jew that is he and his family….

Sid: Now give me one reason why he might be.

Dell: Well for one is because the very nature of the fact that he was from the Iberian Peninsula of course he was born in Italy. And that he was bussing people back and forth a lot of people only think that he only had one trip. No he took at least documented 4 trips back and forth from Spain taking different people of Spanish surnames.  The Spanish surnames that were on his passengers list were Sephardic surnames.

Sid: In other words Spanish Jews…he was actually getting the Spanish Jews out of Spain.

Dell: Out of Spain.

Sid: Now what would happen to the Spanish Jews if they stayed?

Dell: Oh my goodness they would be forced to do what is called limpiador de la sangre, a cleansing of the blood. And they would be forced to wear a sampanito, a vest until the time of their trial.   They would be tortured, I mean in the most grotesque and wicked ways.  For instance in one case of torture they would tie you to a steel seat, a chair, they would tie your wrists to the arm rest and then they would tie…they would put a steel band around either your neck or your forehead and they would put a lump of pork fat on your feet. And then they would start a fire on your feet. And before all of the pork fat was burned away they put more pork fat just to torture you.

Sid: Why were they torturing these Jews?

Dell: They wanted to force the Jew first to confess to convert from their faith of their fathers or forefathers there was a Torah there was a Judaism and such.  And not only to force and confess and accept the Catholic the Roman Catholic version of Christianity but also to tell of all of their family members and their neighbors all of the clan and extended family that were Sephardic Jews. They were actually just developing this so they would go and fetch them and torture then limpieza de la sangre, meaning the cleansing of the blood, the ultimate, the only way to cleanse society, there places, that is their churches, their homes, their lands, their streets was by burning you at the stake.  That was called limpieza de la sangre when they burn you at that stake and then then they had cleansed themselves of your blood.

Sid: Now would a Jew in Spain be safe if they converted to Catholicism?

Dell: Some of them were able to do miracles because the miracle and through the handy work of God Sid they were able. Sad but true that some of them were they were gifted explorers, they were scientists, these were scholars that are Sephardic Jews in Spain. They were very wealthy, they were aristocrats, they were extremely wealthy so many of them were able to buy their survival for them and their families.

Sid: But what about someone that wasn’t able to that said “Okay I will just whether I believe or not I’ll become a Catholic to save my life there was a term called marrano was that where it developed?

Dell: Yes Sir once they forced you and you were able to live as a result of this process they would call you marrano it’s a Spanish word. We say marrano, marrano is a Spanish word for pig or swine.

Sid: But wait a second if someone converted to Catholicism why would they be called a pig?

Dell:  Because you are not really authentically originally a Catholic, a non-Jewish Catholic, you were converted from Jew, from a Jewish form of lifestyle to the Catholic church they call you a pig. And they force you to eat pig in front of the public and any time you took a trip say you were going to take a trip somewhere come, come up here before you go you’re going to have pork for dinner, or pork for breakfast.

Sid: Hmm.

Dell: Or whatever just to prove that you’re going to stay faithful to the faith and to the people of the Catholic church.

Sid: But I understand even if they submitted to all of that they still many of them died.

Dell: Oh, most definitely yes many of them extreme amounts of our people died not withstanding people that would say just tell me what you want me to say in bits of torture.  Being hung for instance they tie your hands behind your back, you know like with hand cuffs.

Sid: Right.

Dell: Then put you on a pulley and pull you up and it was pulling your arms backward and upward and they had all kinds of ingenious forms of causing all kinds of pain to your body and pulling you up, letting you down up and down forcing you to convert and forcing you to tell the secret of your family every secret that you knew of your family.  And of your community there was common to the Sephardic faith and the lifestyle.  There was another torture that was horrible they put you in a wheel and they would tie you and they would stretch you and they would dismember you so often time even before you were burned at the stake you were already tortured you were more dead than alive.  And in Madrid I saw the place Sid, I was there earlier this year and 2 years ago in the la plaza principal de Madrid, that is in the main plaza of Madrid, Spain.  I saw exactly where they have the high tribunal and they have the forced conversions they have the idols of sand and it was very very eloquent. And then after all of the processes and leaf upon leaf of evidence and documentation that was done by the hierarchy of the Catholic Church they would lead in a procession of the most awesome kind out to an arch of the prophet of Mural and then many of them never made it to the burning at the stake because they forced them to kneel in a stone concrete pillar there with a big cross and they would be decapitated right there.

Sid: Dell when you see this sad, sad history of people that call themselves Christians it’s a miracle that any Jewish person believes in Jesus today between the Spanish Inquisition, the Mexican Inquisition, the US Inquisition, Hitler used Christian terminology.  I mean it’s got to be one of the greatest miracles when a Jewish person can see through all of this satanic bondage and see the King of the Jews the one that really loves them Yeshua.

Dell: Yes, yes, yes. I moaned, and I grieved for years as I was coming into the realization of this documentation…

Sid: Dell I’m sorry we’re out of time.

Sid: My guest by way of telephone is John Carver. John has put together what is considered the greatest archive of materials of men and women that have been used by God in miracle healing ministries. And he’s put together 3 videos of 3 of the most outstanding signs and wonder ministers AA Allen, William Branham and Jack Coe he calls it sort of a play on their last names the “ABC’s of God” in which you’ll actually see miracles taking place under the greatest miracle ministries that we don’t even see today. But God commissioned him and He said for him to get these materials because there’s a generation that knows nothing about the miracle working power of God. Now John tell me a nugget something you’ve learned about watching these great men and women of God that’s helped you in your own ministry.

John: Well as I have observe these things these tapes/videos when we transfer the actual films we have the films to the video and as I would watch these Branham teaches the message in there called “Deep Called Unto Deep” as the Psalms. And as I would watch them the things God would speak to me and one of the things that I found out by watching these videos was the very fact that most of these ministers they never ask in a sense they never pray like “Heavenly Father do this or do that” they work with the authority of the position. In other words when you study the life of Christ He never hardly ever prayed “Father you do this but He did it.”  And we have a commission from God for us to do the works of Christ.  Now what I’ve learned from these men is that each one had a particular way of doing it of course, everybody’s indigenous they have that individual touch and the personality.  And God many times gives work with that personality, but they would pray in such a way that each one would be different but here’s just a general ideal of it and it would be something along these lines:

• “I call for the healing power of Jesus Christ to come alive in these bodies.”
• Or “Oh God in the name of Jesus let a miracle take place right now.
• Or something along the lines “In the Name of Jesus come out! Be loosed!”

Sid: There really was an authority there was this faith it was like it would a shock if it didn’t happen.

John: That’s right absolutely and sometime Allen there’s a story that another Voice of Healing told me I didn’t see it.  He told me this and I believe it his name is Joseph De Groto another great man of God down in Florida there. And he was part of the Voice of Healing and he was at a time where in a prayer meeting or not a prayer meeting but a prayer line where Allen literally worked for over an hour with one woman that she would get her healing. These guys had the tenacity of bull dog they knew they just knew they were…

Sid: I saw them pulling people out stretchers it looked like they were dying the last breath. And I men in your videos I mean that is courage.

John: Yeah that takes courage (Laughing) yes it does you better know God told you you know you better know God told you to do this and they worked under that authority.  You see one of the parables it talks about is say “That the lord or the master left and he gave authority unto his servants.” And Velmer Gardner preaches a tremendous message on “The God of Miracles Lives Today.” And that’s one of the themes that he built his ministry well he was a healing preacher.  And then I did a person interview on him and that’s one of the things that he spoke to me about and I hold those things that these things that these men spoke to me very dear to my heart because this is literally the mechanics of how God works. And He doesn’t do the same thing over the same way twice most of the time. God always is the God of variety.

Sid: Would you right now as the Spirit of God leads you just teach for only about a minute or 2 and pray that there are people listening that there’s 2 groups of people there are people that are saying “I want to walk in this miracle ministry but then there’s another group of people saying I have a terminal illness?

John: Hmm hm.

Sid: I’m not going to live unless I get a miracle.

John: Hm hm.

 Sid: Speak to those people.

John: Well I can speak from experience when my wife was hit with cancer twice and was being taken care of by the physicians that I knew that I had to get up to a place where I had to pray and get a hold of God and this is one of the ways I prayed. I said “Father I come to your throne in the name of Jesus and I know that the enemy wants to destroy my life and destroy the life of my family. Now in Jesus name I come against the life of this cancer I come against the life of this disease and the diabolical powers that are behind it and you say if I bind anything here on earth it shall be bound in heaven and whatever I loose here shall be loosed up in heaven. I lose my wife from this affliction.” And even then we had medical help had it not been from the power of God she would not be here today. And I can tell you for surety that the power of God is real today for anybody that wants it God is not a respecter of persons He’s looking for people that He can minister to and through this anointing. Over in 2^nd Corinthians it says chapter 1 and verse 3 “Blessed be the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ the God of mercy who helps us in our troubles that we might be able to help those who are in any trouble.” Therefore God lets us go through things sometimes in order that we might have a greater compassion I know He’s done that with me.  In the name of Jesus there are people in the listening audience right now that are suffering with tremendous back pain and who are going through injury that have had injuries through car accidents and through falls and nature of their backs being damaged.  And I know in my heart right now that God wants to set you free He does not want people to get into any desire of people suffering He wants you free right now. And you’ll just reach out right now in faith and agreeance with me and you will get your healing it’s just that simple I’ve seen it happen 100’s of times and I know…

Sid: How does someone reach out what do they do?

John: Well there was a lady who came in a prayer line and I prayed for her and she came back a second time and she said “I’m still in pain, I’m still in pain.” And I said “Hun I know that God wants your healing and if you’ll just exercise….” See a lot of people think they need a whole bunch of faith you don’t need to use the little bit that you have and if you step out on that  little bit that you’ve got and exercise your faith God will do the rest. He’s made the move by sending Jesus Christ to you like in a game of checkers.  He’s made the first move you’ve heard the message “Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God.”  And if your heart is prickling on the inside right now and you sense God’s presence that’s God’s saying to you “Hey this is for you folks; this is for you you can have this right now.”

Sid: You know I sure sense God’s presence right now and I believe that there are people that actually are feeling heat on their body and that’s the presence of God. And I heard as John was praying I heard that there was someone with a migraine headache and it’s gone in Jesus name. But I tell people exactly what God said and that is “Do something you couldn’t do before, if you’re driving pull off the side of the road; if you have a back problem stand up and bend over, move your neck.” What I find John that once one person is healed anyone can be healed with anything have you noticed that?

John: Sure, yes Sir I’ve seen it come in stages they get something and then they say “Oh I’ve got this and then the next step is that they get that and then the next step.” Jesus always asked people to do something every time He prayed with somebody most of the time that is that they had to do something.  I know there’s extraordinary occasions like the man that was already dead but there are cases where most of the time where Jesus asked them to so something exercise your faith.

Sid: Another quick nugget that you learned.

John: One of the things that I feel like that is so close to me is that you have to learn and I’ve already said it once it’s like “Learn to walk within the territory of which God told you to walk.”  I live in Baltimore, Maryland and geographically if God said that’s where He’ll walk at that’s where I’m supposed to walk at.

Sid: I’ve noticed that certain people say they go to different countries and they say their anointing changes they have almost an Apostles type anointing in these other countries they come back to America and they’re just like everyone else.

John: Well that’s where they’re supposed to be at (Laughing.)  You know you don’t have to be a rocket scientist to figure that one out if you have a greater anointing in a certain area geographically it counts and many times we’re in the wrong place we need to be in the place that God calls us to be. And you know it’s so much easier you know I saw a lady driving a car and she was taking so long to get out of the parking place if she would just let the car move a little bit she would have been able to steer a whole lot easier.  And that’s what you’ve got to get going in order for this period. Your guidance will come through the word of God mostly, through the visitation of the Holy Spirit, but you got to get moving and find out where God wants to use you. Don’t be afraid to step out on the water; Peter stepped out on the water. When I was first stepping out when RW Schambach came on the radio every day what a faith preacher. He would get on that radio every day and he would say “Step out on the water.” And I was afraid to step out, I was afraid that I would be offender, I was afraid that I wouldn’t be able to make it, I was afraid that what people had to say. I was afraid because I wasn’t educated and I wasn’t refined and this sort of stuff.  But when I stepped out on the water God made it able to hold me and He’s never left me sink.

Sid: You know one of my thoughts was “I wish I could have gone to a William Branham meeting, or an AA meeting, or a Jack Coe meeting because of the miracles that go on there. But it’s just like going to one of their meetings when you see one of your videos it’s like having a front row seat.

John: Absolutely you know I’ll never be able to meet Dr. Price here he’s already dead gone to be with the Lord. I will never meet DL Moody even though we have a voice recording of DL Moody. I will never be able to meet these people, but when I hear their voices, or I read their material, or I study their Bible studies, or I see a video I am able to partake into their ministry…