SID: Now I promise you I will turn Apostle Maldonado loose. But just during the commercial break, he tells me about the Kingdom of God controls nature. You were in an arena, I think, in Argentina, and it was raining. Tell me about that.

APOSTLE MALDONADO: Yeah. It was raining and the pastor gave me the microphone, and the pastor said, “Please hurry up because, you know, it’s raining. We lost the instruments that we have, machines that we have.” And he, as it was pouring, people were waiting, like 50,000 people waiting. And suddenly I got up in the pulpit and the Lord said, “Just speak in the rain.” And it was a very simple prayer. It wasn’t any mystical superstitious prayer. He just said, close to Heaven, the natural Heaven. Then suddenly at that moment, the rain stopped. And the thing is around the whole arena it as pouring and continuing.

SID: Now this was a bull-fighting arena.

APOSTLE MALDONADO: Yes. So what happened after that, and I knew the Lord was going to do something. So after that we saw there was a man that he was missing one of his kidneys. And the Lord started doing creative miracles, and that was the man that received a new kidney.

SID: You know, this is normal for you. It’s normal for those that listen to his teaching. But I want you to teach right now and make the whole world normal.

APOSTLE MALDONADO: Okay. There’s people watching right now, and you’ve been hungry for the supernatural. You’re thirsty for the supernatural. And how can we bring Kingdom on Earth? For so many people, kingdom is just a theological concept. It’s just a historical thing. And I can tell you, the Kingdom of God, first of all the Kingdom of God is the government of God, and the Kingdom, the first characteristic of the Kingdom is that the Kingdom is supernatural. What do you mean supernatural? It is above and beyond, beyond your circumstances, beyond sickness, beyond diseases, the beyond demons, beyond any natural impossibility that you have. Number two, the Kingdom of God is an unshakable kingdom. In other words, if we’re in it, nothing, nothing can shake your life. Number three, the Kingdom of God is not only an unshakable kingdom of supernatural, the Kingdom of God also is a kingdom, not in words, but in power. In other words, we must demonstrate that kingdom. That’s why Jesus was risen from the dead, because he demonstrated, if he had not risen, where’s the kingdom of what? Of nothing. But he was raised from the dead. He’s saying, “I established my Kingdom over the kingdom of darkness.” So it’s not only words, but also in power. And number four, this is what I like, the Kingdom of God is a kingdom that holds reality we can experience here and now. Can we bring Heaven on Earth now? Can we do it now? And just to give you an example. There’s a woman that came into the church, one of the services. I call people from the audience and I said, “I want you to come and pray for the sick.” And this person, she was deaf from birth. And I said, “I want you to pray for her.” And they prayed for her, and right there the person was completely healed. And I was trying to teach the people, you can bring the Kingdom, you can have that experience now, here and now if you believe it. So now that you’re watching, let me impart to you, knowing that we can bring Heaven on Earth. If you have an impossibility, the definition of a miracle is this. The definition is a supernatural intervention of God in the impossibilities of men now. Which impossibility do you have in your life right now? Which impossibility in your marriage, in your dreams, in your vision, in your house, in your business, any area right now, let me release it to you. And there’s people watching that need a creative miracle. Sometimes we just stay in healing. We say, well God will do it. Well God wants to do it now. God is the God of the now, not a god of the past or god of the future. His name is the great I AM, and the great I AM wants to be manifested and demonstrated right now. So I want you to stretch your hands. If you need a healing, if you’ve been oppressing your mind, if you a creative miracle, I want to release it to you. Father, in the name of Jesus, and I want the audience to pray with me. There are thousands and thousands watching, and if you’re watching right now, I want you to stretch your hands and let, bring the Kingdom of God here now. Let’s not wait tomorrow. God is the God of the now. Father, in the name of Jesus, I thank you and I give you praise. And there’s a woman that your breasts have been removed because of cancer. God has created a new breast now. Right now. Father, there’s someone watching, I think you’re a man, you’re a truck driver, and you’re a truck driver, and you got metals in your body, a bunch of metals. God is changing metals into bones and into flesh. Receive it now. If you have bones, metals in your body, I see that miracle everywhere I go. And God is creating you flesh and bones in your body right now in Jesus’ name. Blindness, I want you to lay hands on your eyes. Father, in Jesus’ name, blindness go in Jesus’ name. There’s somebody that suffered a heart attack, and right now God is healing your heart. Something jump into your heart right now. And that’s the power of the Holy Ghost. There’s a pastor watching and you walked in the supernatural for a while. And because you couldn’t stand the pressure to move in the supernatural and the criticism, God is releasing a new fire in you right now. In Jesus’ name, back conditions, back conditions are being healed right now. There’s a businessman, there’s a businessman watching, you lost a big, big amount of money. And the Lord said, I will restore that in three days, meaning the resurrection power is being released in finances right now. In Jesus’ name, if your dreams, your visions, something has been dead, Father, I release the power of the resurrection. One, two, three, now in Jesus’, there you go, power is coming out. My God, there is fire. When I feel the fire in my right hand that’s creative miracles going on, creative miracles going on. There is somebody, there is somebody, there is somebody that you’re missing a bone in your left hip right now. You felt like a heat in your body. In Jesus’ name, my God, something is happening. There are people taking pills, depression, afflicted. In Jesus’ name, I command every oppression in your mind be delivered, be healed in Jesus’ mighty name right now, right now, right now. And there’s people right now that are saying, Pastor, I need creative miracles, even hair is growing, hair, hair, hair. People are being, something is happening right there. Father, in Jesus’ name, I rebuke every sickness, I rebuke every disease. Go from the people of God. Be healed. Be delivered. Creative miracles. And I release the power of the resurrection. There’s people right now that say, Pastor, I want to be activated in the power of God, I want to bring the Kingdom wherever I go. Stretch your hands, both hands right now. Father, in the name of Jesus, I activate those people to do miracles, signs and wonders, and I am asking your Holy Spirit to open their eyes and the power of the resurrection being revealed in their heart right now. Father, wherever they go the will bring Heaven on Earth right now in the name of Jesus. Right now, receive!

SID: And the most important thing is you must believe the blood of Jesus and your repentance washes away your sins. And as you’re clean, you boldly say with your mouth, Jesus is my Messiah and Lord. Live inside of me. Take over my life. I love you, Lord Jesus. Say it right now. Now.

APOSTLE MALDONADO: Repeat it.

SID: I’m here with Don Gossett. And what happened when you’re traveling with your daughter to go speak and you’re on the airplane, and your daughter starts hemorrhaging through every opening of her body. Tell me about that.

DON: My daughter Judy and I had been in Africa ministering in crusades in Nairobi and Mombasa, and our journey was over. We were on the way back home. We had this flight to London. And on the flight, Judy saw empty seats where she could go back and lay down. And so I went back to speak with her in mid-flight, and she said, “Dad, I’ve been vomiting repeatedly.” And I just said, “You’ll be fine.” So I kind of laid my hand casually on her forehead and spoke a fatherly prayer. I wasn’t with the unction I should have had. I thought it too would pass. But about half an hour before the flight landed in London, a flight attendant came and said, “Mr. Gossett, your daughter has been very ill. She’s been hemorrhaging from literally every opening in her body. We have called Heathrow Airport to have her a wheelchair available and then to take her into the emergency hospital there.” And that’s what happened. But after about an hour the doctor came out and said, “It’s something more severe than just a light affliction. It’s, we don’t know exactly what it is, but we feel it’s very critical. And we are sending her to the special hospital here in London that specializes in tropical infectious diseases.” And so the ambulance came and he gave me permission to accompany my daughter. And when we arrived at the hospital she was met by a group of hospital people, doctors and people, and they took her to an isolation room. And after considerable time they came out to tell me that she was so critically ill that they didn’t know whether she’d make it through the night or not. And they said, “We don’t know right now how to treat her, but,” they said, “we’ll ask you to leave and we’ll let you know when she comes back.” They said, “We’ll give you 20 minutes to be with your daughter.” And I went in to speak to her in 26 alphabetic scriptures. And I told her, “Judy, we haven’t time for intercession prayer. I’m going to speak this healing word.” I came to the scripture, “O, should not this woman being an adult of Abraham whom Satan has bound, be loosed now in Jesus’ name.” And I said, “Judy, that’s for you. You’re this woman. You’re a daughter of Abraham. You ought to be loosed.” And in Jesus’ name that giving word penetrated her body. Then I had to leave her and go to a hotel. And I kept calling the next morning, how was she? I got no information. And they finally said, “Don’t call us any more, we’ll call you.” And the chief physician, Dr. Clark, called me and said, “This is amazing. It’s like we’ve had two women in that bed. Last night she was so critically ill that we gave her no medication because we didn’t know how to medicate her. We were just fighting to keep her alive. They said, “This morning, it’s totally different. All the conditions that we saw last night are gone. Your daughter is healed.”

SID: And here’s the good news. God is not respective of persons. Don received a revelation about worship that when you worship God and pray the scriptures, and pray a prayer of faith, that all things are possible, not just physical healing, any area of your life. Take just two minutes, that’s all, and I want you to worship God, and I want you at home and in the studio audience to worship God, and then you pray the prayer of faith strongly right now.

DON: The Bible says in Psalm 100, to “Come in to his gates in thanksgiving and courts with praise.” Praise is the forerunner of God’s intervention. And I would invite you of this audience to join me as we simply say, “Praise the Lord, Amen.” And let’s say it 10 times. It would be helpful to hold up your left hand and with your right index finger touch each finger. And when you do, say a joyful, wholehearted “Praise the Lord, Amen!” Join me. “Praise the Lord, Amen!” “Praise the Lord, Amen!” “Praise the Lord, Amen!” “Praise the Lord, Amen!” “Praise the Lord, Amen!” “Praise the Lord, Amen!” “Praise the Lord, Amen!” “Praise the Lord, Amen!” “Praise the Lord, Amen!” “Praise the Lord, Amen!” Give Him the glory. Praise Him. Hallelujah. Father, in the name of Jesus, I pray for every person of this visible audience, as well as, Lord, those throughout the area where this program is reaching all over the world. You see those who are sick and suffering, and oppressed. And now Lord, in your authority I speak in Jesus’ name for diabolical diseases to depart, cancer, diabetes, heart trouble, high blood pressure, blindness, deafness, arthritis, all kinds of infirmity. In Jesus’ name, loose your hold. The power of sickness, disease, infirmity is broken. Receive it now in Jesus’ name. Amen.

SID: And now, wait a second. Now the greatest miracle about ready to happen. If you, with your mouth, will proclaim that Jesus is your Lord, you will believe in your heart that he rose from the dead and ask him to forgive you of all of your sins. He’ll wash them away and God, the Creator of the Universe, Jesus the Son of God, the Spirit of God will live inside of you. Say this out loud, studio audience, you too, you at home, too: Jesus is my Lord.

DON & AUDIENCE: Jesus is my Lord.

SID: He died for my sins.

DON & AUDIENCE: He died for my sins.

SID: I ask him to live inside of me.

DON & AUDIENCE: I ask him to live inside of me.

SID: And take over my life.

DON & AUDIENCE: And take over my life.

SID: Praise the Lord.

DON & AUDIENCE: Praise the Lord.

SID: Amen.

DON & AUDIENCE: Amen.

Sid: I have on the telephone Pastor Robert Heidler. He’s pastor of Glory of Zion Outreach Center in Denton, Texas right outside of Dallas. I got ahold of an unpublished manuscript that he wrote called “The Messianic Church.” It filled in the missing blanks of how we got to something that was 100% Biblically Jewish, to what we have today that is so foreign, that it is considered in traditional Jewish circles the opposite of Judaism. How did all that happen? Did God want it? We know one thing, when we lost our Jewish Biblical roots we lost the power of God. Pastor Heidler you were speaking on yesterday’s broadcast about a wonderful thing, observing the birth of the Messiah. Of course it’s not in the Bible, but we had to cutoff right there. So tell me where this whole Christmas thing came from.

Robert: Well Sid it’s interesting with Constantine he was a worshiper of the pagan sun god Mithras. When he had his vision of the cross in the sky he assumed that Christ was a manifestation, evidently of Mithras, and that really began to affect a lot of the things. You know when he made Sunday an official state holiday, he didn’t call it the day of Christ he called it the venerable day of the sun. So here’s supposedly Christian emperor naming the Christian day of worship after the pagan sun god. I have a photograph of a 4^th century Roman mosaic shows Jesus as the sun god driving his chariot across the sky, it was found in the city of Rome. So one of the things Constantine did was to the church some new holidays. The Romans… the church had never really had a celebration for the birth of Jesus, but the Romans celebrated the birth of Mithras. In the year 274 the Emperor Aurelian had made the birthday of Mithras an official state holiday, and the date was December 25^th. So Constantine just took that and said “Well this is the day then to celebrate the birthday of the Christ.”

Sid: Of course not only that, he certainly wasn’t too historical because we know the shepherds were out in the fields when Jesus was born. That certainly was not even in the month of December it was too cold.

Robert: Exactly. Biblically there’s a lot of things that indicate it was probably during the Feast of Tabernacles when Jesus was born. So Constantine invented a whole new holiday for the church. Like I was say yesterday, I’m glad we have a time of the year when people talk about Jesus. I don’t think it’s bad to celebrate Christmas, we just need to know this is not a Biblical holiday; it’s not something that should be replacing Biblical holidays. We can celebrate the birth of Jesus anytime we want to, and it’s great to do it in December as well.

Sid: You know in your manuscript, you bring out some facts that I’ve never seen before. That is when Constantine made Christianity the official state religion with himself at the top. He was obviously a master politician because he got all the pagans to go along it, he got a large number of Christians to go along with it. Is it true that in some instances he took over pagan temples, changed the names and made them Christian temples? Took the pagan priests and changed their names, and made them pastors.

Robert: Exactly, his goal was to unify the empire because Christianity had been growing to the point where it was a major force in the empire, and he wanted to sort of blend it into paganism and that way unite the empire. It was very easy to do because in the pagan mind they didn’t mind changing the names of their gods. When Greek religion came to Rome they just took the Greek gods and gave them Roman names. So Zeus became Jupiter, and Herod became Juno, and Poseidon became Neptune. If you were a Greek and you came to Rome you would just worship at the temple of the god that… you know if you were a worshiper of Athena you would go to the temple of Minerva and worship the same god by a different name. What happened is the pagans began to rush into the church; they did that same thing they just took the names of Christian saints who were honored by the church, and gave those names to their pagan gods and continued to worship them. If you were a pagan farmer and you were told you could no longer go to your temple and pray to the god of the harvest what would you do? Well you go to the church that used to be your temple, and now you pray to the patron saint of the harvest. Your religion has not changed, but now you’re supposedly a Christian.

Sid: I’m wondering if in the early church where they started praying to the mother of Jesus, Mary, started praying to saints if the vestiges were not in what you’re stating right now.

Robert: Oh yes, I mean this is well documented. One of the most popular religions in Rome was the worship of Isis. She was an Egyptian goddess, they called her the great virgin, they called her the mother of god, and she’s usually shown holding her child the god Horus. So when the pagans told you could no longer practice for pagan worship, the worshipers of Isis just began calling her by the name of Mary, and we continue to legally worship her the same way they had before.

Sid: This is absolutely amazing, but you know one of the saddest things I read in your book “The Messianic Church”… You read some of the “church fathers” who came under the influence of Constantine. What was the difference that you saw?

Robert: Oh! One of the most disappointing things to me when I studied church history in seminary was when I got to read the church fathers because I thought this will be exciting to read what these early Christian leaders had to say. You begin to read them and it was like they quoted the New Testament a lot, but they really didn’t understand much of anything. Some of it’s almost comical. There’s one writing called the Didache, and it was supposedly a record of the teachings passed down from the 12 apostles. It really is very comical; he talks in the Didache about the how to fast effectively. It says “Do not let your fasting be as the hypocrites for the hypocrites fast on the 2^nd and 5^th day of the week. Therefore, let your fasting be on the 4^th and 6^th day.” You think that is not the level of insight that the apostles had. An instruction on baptism, the main emphasis you should baptize in cold running, and if you didn’t have running water then you could use still water but it should be cold. It was like they had the terminology, but they didn’t understand the meaning. Philip Schaff who is a well-known church historian said when you go from the Jewish apostles to those Gentile church fathers it is like going from a city in a beautiful well watered oasis, out into a dry and barren wilderness. Part of the problem is, those church fathers, most of them had been Greek philosophers. They were trying to take the truth of Christianity and blend them into pagan Greek philosophy, and they ended up with having a lot of the right words, but they didn’t have a Biblical understanding of what they were talking about.

Sid: You know as I studied your book on “The Messianic Church” there’s something I never knew, and that is when Christianity under Constantine became the state religion it became punishable by death to have a house church, explain that.

Robert: Oh! Constantine wanted a church he could control and he could not control a house church. So he first began to build these huge beautiful basilicas for Christians to worship in all over the empire. Once he had those built he passed a law outlawing houses of prayer, worship in homes. He even said he made the decree very harsh because he wanted to strike terror into the hearts of his subjects. He literally stamped out any vestige of the house church. There have been some historians that have estimated that probably more Christians were killed by Constantine than by all of the pagan emperors before him. Only with Constantine they did not call it persecution, they called it cleansing because he was cleansing out of the church those who would not go along with his changes.

Sid: He mentioned a term basilica. You’ve got an illustration in “The Messianic Church” of how what we call a church building came into being; explain that.

Robert: Well to Constantine the highest form of worship was the Roman Emperor worship because in the Roman world the emperor was a god and he was worshiped as a god.  The imperial throne room was a place of worship and it had worship ceremonies; traditional forms of worship that they used in the worship of the Roman emperor. What Constantine did was he built replicas of imperial throne room, instead of having a throne for the emperor they would have a throne for the bishop. That was now the church building, and the forms of worship that would go on in there were designed to be patterned after the, not after a Biblical Hebraic kind of worship, but it really came from the Roman rituals of emperor…

Sid: You have a quote in your book from something that was on The Learning Channel, do you remember that?

Robert: Yes. There was a show on The Learning Channel, you can still order the CD’s from it. It’s called “Rome: The Power and The Glory.” It was a series on the Roman empire, it’s rise and it’s fall. On the last show of that series, it was on the fall of the Roman empire and one of the last statements it made was “It’s interesting that imperial Rome is probably best preserved in the church it once persecuted.”

Sid: Oi vey!

SID: Hello. Welcome. Welcome to my world where it’s naturally supernatural. Could sinister invisible forces be blocking answers to our prayers, stopping loved ones from being saved, stopping your physical healing, fouling up your finances? Is it possible for God the Creator of the Universe to start running interference for you so that you have an open Heaven? My guest has been taught for many, many years about what the Bible calls the breaker anointing. And when she speaks, the breaker starts running interference for you and you just walk along your merry way. Would you like to understand the breaker anointing? I’m here with Barbara Yoder. And Barbara thought she was a true intellectual. After all, she was an atheist. She was reading philosophers. And you came to one person you started reading, Dietrich Bonhoeffer. He’s a fascinating man and he made one statement that just stuck with you. What was that?

BARBARA: He said that there comes a place where every single one of us has to take a leap of faith. And of course, I was going totally by my mind, totally intellectually, and I was trying to figure out if God existed or not. And that one line caused me to stop immediately and say, “God, if you exist, I have a few things to talk over with you.”

SID: She prayed that prayer. Did you expect an answer? Did you really expect an answer?

BARBARA: No.

SID: I’m sure. But what happened? What happened?

BARBARA: Well I just, you know, what do you do? You take a leap of faith. I had no idea what faith was. I had no access to my emotions. But the minute I said that I felt down deep inside of me a door open up because Jesus walked into the room. And I mean, it was miraculous because I was as cold, as calculating, as analytical as you can be. I mean, you know what an intellectual is like and I was considered at the time an intellectual’s intellectual. And I’ll never forget it. It’s marked my life ever since I was—

SID: I don’t think any logic, I don’t think any rationale could have got you to that point that a personal revelation was able to do.

BARBARA: No. I think God just over rode every thought, every emotion. And Jesus walked into the room. The minute he walked into the room a door opened. I don’t even know. All I know is what I felt. And I didn’t feel things, but I felt a door open way down deep inside here. And all of a sudden, all these emotions rushed out and I began to weep and weep, and weep, and I was overcome by absolute liquid love, and that love just began to wash and wash, wash all the anger, all the bitterness. I turned to my mind because of pain and suffering. But all that love just began to wash the depths of all the pain and the suffering.

SID: The love that you’re talking about right now, Barbara is talking about, people say I want to experience that love. But I can tell you as a fact, that love, just as she was speaking about it, that love just started gushing all over every one of you right now. What did God tell you just as you were coming on this set?

BARBARA: Just as I came on the set, it was fascinating. All of a sudden I just saw in both heard that there is a massive angelic visitation that’s right here in this room right now and it’s going out across the television audience, and God is invading individuals’ lives who are in impossible situations. It may be health. I felt there were people who were going to get miraculously saved. There were people who were going get miraculously delivered right as they’re watching you and I today, Sid. In fact, I saw a mother whose baby, there’s somebody out there whose baby is in big trouble and the mother is just beside herself. And God is intervening and literally clearing up that issue, that health issue with that baby right now. I really believe that baby doesn’t have a chance to live without God’s intervention. And right now God is touching that baby and healing that situation.

SID: What is the breaker anointing?

BARBARA: The breaker anointing is Micah 2:13, where God literally goes before us. And we’re so worried about the devil sometimes. I’m more worried about where God is. And you know, that God goes before us and leads us out of narrow, confined, constricted, difficult places. He finds the way. He leads us to the gate that literally leads us out into a broad unconfined space.

SID: So the breaker is God. I want to read in the Message Bible a personalized version that will really make this clear. “God will burst all of my confinements and lead me out into the open. I will follow the king. He will be out in front leading me.” That’s Micah 2:13. How would you like God in front running interference for you? What can man do to you?

BARBARA: That’s right. That’s right.

Sid: This one new man functions the way the Bible says we’re supposed to, for instance, everyone that is born again should move in prophecy, dreams and visions. And the thing that intrigues me so much is how God communicates with us; how God’s heart is to communicate with His people through dreams to show us problem areas that are coming. I have on the telephone Rabbi Kirt Schneider and he’s a Messianic Jewish Rabbi at Adat Adonai Messianic Jewish Congregation in Toledo, Ohio.  Kirt I was listening to your series called Prophesies, Dreams and Visions and I must say that it’s so simple.  But you have keys not from theory from firsthand experience, but you were sharing in that series about a medical doctor Dr. Ben Carson would you tell that story for us.

Kirt:  That is a great story and one of things that I love about this story Sid is he is such a respected, high quality individual. He is one of the leading physicians, he’s actually a surgeon in the entire world.  He’ s appeared on I don’t know if it’s 60 Minutes or 20/20 one of those but I saw him and he performs some of the most complex surgeries that have ever been done.  Separating Siamese twins etcetera so this guy is no flake; Dr. Ben Carson is a strong believer in Jesus.  And his book called “Gifted Hands” he tells this story he was going to medical school and he was working at the same timed to put himself through medical school.  And because of the heavy demands of medical school plus his work he fell behind in his studies and it got to the place that he was so far behind that he needed to take the next day planning to come home and study for the exam when he got home from work. But when he got home from work and he began to study he realized that he was so far behind that he became so overwhelmed that there was no way in the world that he was going to catch up he just went to sleep. That night Sid he had a dream and in the dream he saw a medical exam and he saw the questions on the exam; not only did he see the questions in this dream, but he saw the answers, the next day when he went to take his test low and behold the same test that he saw in the dream the night before was what was lying before him that the prof had distributed to the class and what did he do. He wrote down the answers that he saw the night before in his dream and obviously he graduated from medical school. He tells the story himself once again in his book called “Gifted hands.”  But there are so many examples like that dreams as we indicated they are for every single person that has received the Holy Spirit…

Sid: Your know everyone that is a believer their greatest heart’s desire if they are a true believer is to hear God’s voice and be obedient. And one of the greater frustrations for most believers that I meet is they say “I feel like I don’t hear God’s voice.” But as you’ve been explaining in your teaching dreams are a great way to hear God’s voice explain that.

Kirt: Well, I personally in my own walk with Him have been led more through dreams than any other revelation in my life.  Now don’t misunderstand what I’m saying; let me clarify that. I’m always looking to hear the voice of God but in terms of specific important issues in my life that God has addressed the revelation has more often come in a dream of the night than any other vehicle.  This is consistent with scripture; the Lord said in the Torah “Is there a prophet among you I will speak to him in a vision or in a dream.”  Do you see we go to sleep but God is not sleeping and all we have to do is look in the concordance the word dreams up and we’ll be amazed to see how often. Think about Yeshua’s father Joseph. How did Joseph know to take Yeshua out of Israel because the King was going to kill all the Jewish children.  God revealed Himself to Joseph in a dream, right? So he brought Yeshua to Egypt.  How did Joseph know that he was to bring Jesus back to Israel?  Once again God appeared to him in a dream and said “Take your child back to Israel now.”  Over and over again we see God speaking through dreams because when we’re awake it’s difficult to hear the voice of God because of all the clutter of the world.  But when we’re asleep our soul is loosed from that and it’s in that state of looseness that God often times will speak to us.

Sid: You know that’s such a profound thought. What would you say to the person that’s been listening to us all week and they say “I just don’t know if God’s going to talk to me that way.”  What would you say to them?

Kirt: Well, I would say that first of all that some people say that they don’t dream and the reality is everybody dreams.  But some people are recall their dreams more than others.  Number one you do dream and number 2 God has said that He speaks to His people in dream.

Sid: What if you only recall a tiny bit of the dream; is that helpful?

Kirt:  Well, I think that it’s helpful but if people make this a practice and a focus in their life that they will grow in their ability to recall their dreams.  A person may start out and say “You know what I didn’t dream anything last night.”  But if  you will every single morning and try to remember your dreams and persist in it I believe that by the grace of God that God is going to help you begin, slowly at first but more clearly as times go on, He’s going to help that person that says they don’t dream that they’ll begin to remember. And if they’ll just say God I want to hear your voice, I’m going to pay attention I believe God will reward that person and they’re going to begin to see the Lord leading them in the night. Some of the major decisions that I’ve made in my life have been based simply upon a dream.  But I would say this Sid I believe that dreams are for every single child of God; I don’t have any question about that.  But I would also say this if God knows that we’re not going to listen because we’re trapped in some religious system and we’re more concerned about staying within our system and being accepted by man than listening to Him.  You know maybe He won’t speak to us but if we’re more hungry for God and to hear his voice and to obey him like Abraham than anything else in life then he’s going to speak.

Sid: You know Kirt something that I have found is that I’ve been doing what you’re teaching is that it’s like the more I ponder these dreams the more supernatural revelation that I get.  The less I ponder the less I get, and I’m at a point now where I’m almost overwhelmed at how I understand for the first time.  Now I’ve had literal dreams, now you don’t have to be a mental giant to understand them, but since God’s speaks to us in this dream language which is literally different for each one of us that’s why some else can’t interpret someone else can’t interpret someone else’s dream.  I am finding more that I move in this direction the better understanding I’m getting.

Kirt: It’s absolutely right, seek and you shall find that’s the same reason Yeshua spoke in parables he wanted people to seek for the answer and involve them in the art of discovery and through that to become more intimate with Him. I just believe Sid and I really want to encourage our listeners that God is speaking to you…I’m not saying that all things are from God…but I’m saying if you pay attention that you’ll find that some of your dreams are from the Lord. I remember Sid candidating a Messianic synagogue in New York City one time and before I had gone to minister in the synagogue on Shabbat that night before I was staying in the elders house the the Lord revealed to me in the dream that this is not for you.  I’m going to tell you one of the most amazing things that ever happened to me in my ministry, I had a dream about a woman in my congregation; she is a dear woman she is just a beautiful saint she loves the Lord I mean a worshiper of God she loves the Lord I mean a worshiper of God just a real hungry passionate woman. And in this dream I saw this woman Sid she was in a basement, it was dark in the basement and when I walked down the basement and when I walked down the basement she was canning fruit down there but there was an evil presence in the basement.  And I said to this woman I said “Come on,” I said “We need to get out of here I just sense that there was a presence something evil in that basement that was going to destroy her.” I said we need to get out of here and I appealed to her two times and she wouldn’t come and I left the basement. I wrote the dream down and I pondered that dream because everything that I knew about this woman she was a godly woman and it wasn’t like she was doing something blatantly sinful in that basement but there was something evil down there and she wouldn’t come out from it.  Listen to this months later I had forgotten about the dream, I wrote it down, but months later this woman’s husband comes to me he’s in the congregation and he says “Listen, we’re having some marriage problems,” I’m just going to be very frank right now with your listeners. He said “My wife just doesn’t want to be intimate with me.”  I said “Listen I said we need to talk this is not biblical” and he was to the point and he was about to do something rash.  And I said “Talk to her and see if she’ll come in for some counseling.”  So she came in and they both came in together, we sat down and I began to address the issue I said “Listen,” I said “You know this isn’t right, every time I would say to her why it wasn’t right she would make an excuse and instantly after about the third time of me saying something to her about making an excuse God brought back to me the dream.  And I said “You know what I had a dream about you, I said “Here’s the dream.  And what it was she was making excuses because she wouldn’t come out from this dark place of refusing to be intimate with her husband and that was going to destroy her and her marriage.  I explained the dream to her Sid I want to tell you it was one of the highlights of my ministry, she was INSTANTLY delivered.  I’m telling you brother she was delivered in an instant and she had been to counselors for years, for years they had been to counselors to try to get this problem solved.  And you know what this was a year ago and I still see these people once, twice, a week and their marriage is like it was never before.

Sid: Now I’m speaking by faith but it’s happening and it’s happening very very quickly. I have on the telephone a woman I’ve interviewed her and her husband previously .It’s Pastor Desiree Ayers. She’s Pastor of In His Presence Church in Woodland Hills, California.  Now Desiree was a… what would you call it a Stunt Actress.

Desiree:  A stuntwoman okay.

Sid:  Your father I understand was quite well known in that field.

Desiree: Yes; his name was Hubie Kearns he used to be the stuntman for Adam West on the Batman series.  And then he was also in the movie “The Ten Commandments.” He played one of the Egyptians that was drowned in the Red Sea.

Sid:  Well, from reading my notes that career is a fraught with danger. But let’s go back just a little bit you were not raised in a nice Christian home as a young child you were brought up Christian Science and quickly got involved with psychics.  And you got in a little over your head; tell me about that.

Desiree:   Well, my father was a Christian Scientist, my mom was a New Ager, and so she was always having different Hindu masters into our home.  We were… séances was a regular occurrence things would actually move around the house.  I got paid as a very young girl to study with different masters; and you know my heart was… it’s very interesting because we would meet at different churches at a Lutheran Church.  And it was… they would teach you how to astral-project which is to leave your body; how to read people’s minds.  And I thought I was doing something good like it was spiritual that were going to help people.  And they’d bring people with leukemia and practice different things to help them and I think my heart was really to do good. I had just been really deceived. Got definitely got in way over my head to where I saw things in the spirit realm. As a 16 year old I had never tried any drugs, anything.  That scared me so badly that I just thought “You know I just want to be a normal teenager, I don’t want to be dabbling into this stuff.”  But I had that thing inside of me that was just still craving for God and I think we’re all created with what I call God hunger; we’re just hungry for the presence of God to be connected with our Creator.  And that’s when I kind of went down the path of well…while I was in college I would eat so much to fill that void where I would just eat ice cream, and cookies, and before I knew it I became so large the only piece of my clothing I could fit into were my overalls.

Sid: That’s quite a predicament I mean for a woman who probably doesn’t like to be in the same clothes all the time.

Desiree:   No, I would change my shirt, that was about it. Then before I had gotten so large I did one commercial and you make residuals where they keep sending you money every air.  So I thought “What am I doing I should go back to Hollywood, I got all these connections, I should go back and make a career there.”  So I came back and I told my dad I wanted to be a stuntwoman and he chuckled and he looked at me and said “Desiree who are you going to double you know actresses are so thin that you’re too big there’s nobody for you to double.”  And that’s when I became obsessed with I’m going to do whatever it takes to get this weight off.  I started to run marathons, 26 miles, I would train 10 miles a day, I would do ocean swims of 2 miles. You know I just did everything to get this weight off and I eventually became very thin. I landed the part doubling Daisy Duke in “Dukes of Hazard.”  It was Katherine Bach who played that. I look healthy on the outside but not only did I become so obsessed with my weight that I started throw up my food, I would take diuretics, laxatives to make sure I just was not one pound over weight.  And then I got into something called anorexia where I would just go days and days I went up to 10 days one time of just having water.

Sid: You must have been very weak.

Desiree:  Well, when you’re doing water fasts I would set myself aside where I wouldn’t have to work on a water fast, you go through very slow motion move there.

Sid: You know I’ve fasted as a believer in the Messiah and what I have found is any weight you lose you gain back when you fast.

Desiree:  Yeah, and even more so because you slow down your metabolism.  So I was in a constant cycle of being obsessed with my weight and what I looked like.

Sid: Well, you’re making a career in Hollywood; you’ve got to keep your weight down you’re going into an acting class and you see a man and you just knew that you were going to marry him?

Desiree:  I just looked over this guy there was something just so special about him and I would just anytime he’d do a scene I would be like in gogga over him.  And I called my mom and I said “I met the guy I’m going to marry.”  She said “Desiree you’re kidding, how long have you been dating?”  I said “Well, we haven’t really gone out on a date he’s not interested.”  I knew he was a Christian, he always had a Bible with him and my cousin had become born-again and he asked me if I wanted to go to church with him.  As soon as he said the word church, I thought about Mel Christians and I said “What kind of a church is a Christian?  Well, I knew everything about Mel where he lived, I used to call up his phone machine and listen to his voice and hung up.  I had it really bad.

Sid: (Laughing)

Desiree:   So I ended up saying “Well, where’s the church located?”  And he said “Westwood.” So Mel lived there so I went there for the hope of seeing him, and I have never been in what’s called a Spirit Filled Church.  And the music was so beautiful and the presence of God was everywhere; I could feel the presence of God.  I was crying I didn’t know why I was crying, I was so touched by God but was my first time getting to hear the gospel message.  And I did see Mel in the front row with his hands raised in the air.  And within six weeks… I went home that day and asked Jesus to be my Lord and Savior I asked him to forgive my sins. I felt such a peace, I never felt a search you know at that point spiritually I felt like I found the answer but I just need to know more about my Savior.  And then I got baptized in the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues, and married to this guy that I knew I was going to marry.

Sid: I have it in your book, six weeks you married Mel.

Desiree:  Yeah, was that unbelievable? And we ran off to Vegas because he was good Christian boy and I was stumbling him. He quoted the scriptures that “It’s better to marry then to burn.” So we ran off to Vegas.  And the man who married us on the strip there Candlelight Chapel was a Spirit Filled Born-again believer.  And so God really had His hand on us; now we don’t really recommend this that anybody does that.  We think it’s better to get to know one another and we did have challenges in the first year of our marriage that could have I think been worked out a lot better. But it was from that point it was just a drastic turn of events in my life.

Sid:  But on your honeymoon you went to Europe and you came back 10 pounds heavier.

Desiree: Well, because I was bulimic and throwing up my food and I was with Mel every second so I couldn’t get away from him to throw up my food.  And we would go out to eat, we we’re in Italy and he’d have one pasta dinner and then he’d want to go try out another one; it was a bulimics nightmare.  But when we came and everything went back to normal I went back to purging, throwing up my food, and my routine getting the weight off but I became so convicted.  Because when the Lord’s with you there’s a conviction you know right from wrong, I knew what I was doing was wrong, I knew it was hurting my body.  My hair was just paper thin, my nails were paper thin, I had chunks of hair falling out and I could feel a rapid age starting to happen to me at a young age of 25, I could just feel that I was falling apart.  And Mel came home one night after I had just eaten a bunch of food and throw it up and for about midnight he was waiting tables. I told him and I really thing that this was a first step for healing for anyone that’s battling any type not only in eating disorder, any type of drug addiction because the Bible says “To confess your faults one to another.” And it was that confession; I said “Mel, you know, and I told him what was going on I brought my dark secret out into the light. Mel was so gracious, so wonderful.  And I really think it’s important who you tell too you need to tell somebody that can pray with you that can help you that cares about you. And so Mel said “Well Desiree we’re going to pray.” And when he said that I had recognized that I really didn’t know how to pray, my pat answer was always like “I’m into silent prayer.”  Because I really didn’t know how to pray.  And he said “That’s okay Desiree I’m going to pray and at the end I want you to say ‘I agree.’”  And I did that, the next morning I wake up with an urge to attend this church that’s a Christian Church right in our area we were living in Manhattan Beach.  And I went there with a girlfriend and during the service the Pastor had a 5’7” blond, which is what I am I’m a 5’7” get up and share her testimony.  And she shared how she would run accessibly, do 2 or 3 aerobic classes, it was like listening to myself, throwing up her food, diuretics and she shared how Jesus Christ healed her. And I just started sobbing because I knew, I knew at that moment that I could be healed because He’s not a respecter of persons, if He healed her there was hope for me.  And I just felt like I had no hope but at that moment I knew I had hope and I ended up going quite a few weeks with just so much peace, so much joy not throwing up my food, eating healthy and you know I probably hit the 2 months mark where I’m just like “I’m healed” and I knew I was healed.  Then I started to attend a support group and this was a downfall for me because this particular Christian support group talked the problem, you know they’re talking all the peanut butter and jelly sandwiches they’re eating and you know it was making me hungry for a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. It would go around like that there was a very weak prayer at the end with not a lot of word based.  And so before I knew it I fell right back into that cycle. I could remember I was so upset because I thought if there’s not hope in Jesus I have no hope.  And Mel came home one time to just very excited just full of the joy of Lord, which is typical for him, and he was just sharing all this good news and he could tell I was upset, I was mad.  He said “Desiree what’s a matter?”  And I said “Oh, all this faith stuff it just doesn’t work.”  And he looked at me and he said “Desiree Ayers I don’t care how many times you slip, how many times you fall the word of God says you’re healed and you are healed.”

Sid: And we’re out of time….

Sid: I’m speaking this week on supernatural languages, tongues. I’m starting each day with a scripture, and every week you’re going to get a new scripture for you to meditate on. This week your scripture is Acts 10:38. When you meditate you say it out loud and you personalize it, and you say it many times during the day, that’s how you meditate. By meditating the word gets from your brain into your spirit. Once it gets into your spirit it’s yours. Once it gets into your spirit you will do what it says. It’s that simple that you need help to get confused, that’s why most believers don’t know about meditating on the word of the Lord.  I would rather meditate on one scripture than have a speed contest of reading the Bible, and not even know what I finished reading after I’ve been reading as fast as I could. You see this is why Joshua tells us if we will meditate on the word day and night we will be like a tree planted by the river and we’ll never thirst. Because of what’s coming on planet earth you better start meditating Acts 10:38, I’m gonna personalize it, “God anointed me with His Holy Spirit and His power and I went about doing good and healing all, not just a few, healing all who were oppressed by the devil for God was with me. God is with me.” Do you know that God smeared the oil of His Holy Spirit and His power all over me, and guess what you start saying this enough your spirit will believe it. Your spirit believes it, every fiber of your being will believe this, and as every fiber of your being believes this everyone you pray for that is oppressed by the devil will be healed. Sounds exciting to me how about you?

We’re also speaking this week on tongues and on yesterday’s broadcast I was talking about some people think tongues have ceased because 1 Corinthians 13:8 says “Where there are tongues they will cease.” Of course, as I have pointed out it goes on to say in verse 12 “That when you know everything that’s when they’re going to cease.”  So if you know everything I’ll give you this mic, how’s that sound because I certainly don’t know everything. Then Paul goes on after that verse to say in 1 Corinthians 14:5 “I wish you all spoke with tongues,” then verse 18 “I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all.” In other words, he said “You guys speak in tongues a lot, but I do more than,” there’s only a guy that wrote most of the New Testament, you know. It must have been important for him to say “I speak in tongues more than all of you.” Then verse 39, and here’s the admonition after he was talking about when the perfect comes and we know everything tongues will cease. He then goes on to say “Do not forbid to speak with tongues.” Jude 1:20 tells you why you should speak in tongues “But you beloved building yourself up on your most holy faith praying in the Holy Spirit.” In other words, you are building your spirit man up. You know I go to the gym, and my first couple of times I hired a personal trainer, and he showed me what to do to build my muscles up. A couple of years ago I started falling, I don’t know why I was tripping I hurt myself, and I thought “Well I walk a half hour a day, why am I falling?” Someone said to me “Walking doesn’t build muscles,” and so I said “Oh that makes sense.” So I went to the gym and I started lifting weights and I had a personal trainer who helped me. If I hadn’t had that personal trainer I would not have gotten the firm foundation that I have today. Guess what, I don’t fall anymore. Well it’s the same thing in the spirit realm you need a personal trainer so that you’re not gonna fall in the spirit anymore. So this is why we’ve developed these 2 CD’s called “PTT, Personal Trainer for Tongues.” I have to tell you the truth about myself. As a new believer I prayed in tongues an hour a day, but you know how it is over time it was less, and less, and less. Well I’m back and I’m back with a vengeance. I don’t want a day to go by that I don’t pray for 1 hour in tongues, and I don’t want a day to go by that you don’t pray for 1 hour in tongues. Why should you pray in tongues? Among other things, 1 Corinthians 14:17 says “For you indeed give God thanks WELL.” You’re thanking God well. I mean it’s the best thanks you can give to God, and I like to do that personally. You become sensitive to God’s voice; you’re going to operate in joy, in supernatural peace. As a matter of fact, I interviewed someone, and I’ve got to get my producer to look that up so I can get those facts again. I interviewed someone they studied it from a scientific view point, the brain. They found out that you literally change your brain for the better when you pray in tongues. So you have literally nitrogen explosions going on in the spirit realm when you’re praying in tongues. Your power in the spirit is going to increase; you’re going to start having your gifts released; you’re going to get rid of blockages in your life that are stopping you from fulfilling your destiny; you’re going to get rid of hurts. You know what I’ve found, sometimes when I pray in tongues I’ll think about someone that hurt me. I mean someone 40 years ago, 50 years ago that I never thought about, that I never thought I had to think about, that I don’t even care about anymore. I don’t even know if they’re alive anymore, but they hurt me. I thought about it while I was praying in tongues and I was able to forgive them. I mean it’s the most wonderful gift that someone… you’ll start having revelation of the word like you’ve never had in your life as you pray in tongues. Did you know that this is the way the early church prayed? Guess what, I’d like to see the miracles today in the life of every believer that happened in the life of every believer in the early church, and they prayed in tongues. In fact, Acts 6:4 when you study it in the Greek this is what it says, and the apostle said “We will give ourselves continually to” in the English it says “to prayer,” but in the Greek it says “We will give ourselves continually to THE prayer, and THE ministry of the word.” What do you think THE PRAYER is? Have you seen how much Paul was teaching about tongues? That’s the prayer. Now in Romans 8:26-28 God says “Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groaning’s which cannot be uttered,” that’s tongues. Then verse 27 says “Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.” Every prayer you pray in tongues is according to the will of God who knows everything. We know nothing compared to He who knows everything. We are able to pray the same way God would be praying for someone’s problem. Can you see how important this is? That’s why most people misunderstand this. Pau goes on to say in verse 28 “And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.” You want everything to work together for good in your life, pray perfect prayers. Pray by the one who knows everything. You see how important this? I’m reminded of a woman that I interviewed many years ago and she was kidnapped by a mass murderer. She didn’t even know he was a mass murderer he had murdered about 18 women that looked exactly like her. Raped them then murdered them. Do you know what, the Holy Spirit had her praying in tongues for hours before she was kidnapped. She was the first one that survived, in fact she convinced this murderer to accept Jesus and to turn himself in. What worse could happen to you than what I just described? By praying in tongues her entire life was revolutionized; her entire life was saved. I’ve got friends that are Jewish believers in Jesus in Israel, and before they go on a bus, or before they go out they pray in tongues because the Holy Spirit knows the problems that are gonna hit them before the problems hit them, and they actually clear the way that don’t have to hit those problems.

Sid: I have on the telephone Rick Joyner he’s the director of Morningstar Ministries; Author of the bestselling series “Final Quest.” I’m interviewing him this week on what I consider the most significant book he has ever done for such a time as this. It’s called “The Power to Change the World.” Rick is a historian at heart and a man of spirit. He’s combined the best of both to put a prophetic understanding of the 2 greatest revivals in history and what it means for today. What it means for the next revival that’s coming. You say something in your book that intrigues me Rick. You talk about the supernatural unity that people had when they were in the manifest presence of God with such a tangible fashion. They would speak to people not so much what they saw on the outside, but they would look at them through the eyes of the Spirit not their natural eyes. Explain what you mean by that.

Rick: Well you know this was seen… I think is one of the testimonies of a true move of God is when people quit looking at externals and superficial things and they start knowing each other after the Spirit instead of the flesh. You know, like Azusa Street they were… Some of the most wealthy people in Los Angeles would come and sit right next to washerwoman, and all the races were all there together. People didn’t even see each other by racial things anymore they just saw each other as brothers and sisters in Christ. They esteemed their citizenship in the kingdom far above any cultural, or racial, or any other kind of relationship they may of had. I think that is in evidence of the true outpouring of the Holy Spirit. You know God loves diversity, and it’s interesting when He poured out His Spirit on the first day of Pentecost. It was when those from every nation were present. Then He spoke to them all in their own language; I mean it’s like… they all heard of the glories of God. I think there’s a special attraction of the Holy Spirit to places where people with differences get along, and you know one of the major human problems when there was just 2 brothers on earth they couldn’t get along. We have problems.

Sid: Maybe that’s what’s going to provoke the Jew to jealousy when there’s enough anointing that we’ll all get along.

Rick: I do believe that. Who the Jewish people have the most trouble with today are their own relatives. You know, many of them through Abraham, but I believe that’s going to change according to Isaiah 19 it’s going to change in a dramatic way.

Sid: Prophetically speaking what do you see going on in the world today?

Rick: Well… you know I see things pretty differently than you get on the news media. For example, I am astonished at how well things are going in Iraq. You know considering that situation I can’t believe how much progress has been made towards democracy and other such things in such a short period of time with so little strife, and so little… I would have expected a civil war to have exploded almost instantly instead of dozens being killed a day; I would of expected thousands to be honest with you. So I do tend to see things a little differently. People do forget history; you know no one thought Japan, or Germany could ever become a democracy. Now they’re two of the strongest in the world, two of the most powerful democracies in the world. We know the saying “Those who don’t know history are doomed to repeat it.” It’s tragic we forget that so much, but that’s one of the reasons why I wrote the, what I believe is a prophetic history, and the power to change the world; because I believe those are models those revivals are models of what we’re going to see happen again here.

Sid: Okay paint me a picture of what a church that’s experiencing the manifest presence of the God is going to look like.

Rick: Well I’ve been in meetings where the Lord manifested in a spectacular and supernatural way. Everyone instantly shut up; everyone instantly hit the ground I mean on their faces. I remember in one meeting we stay on our faces for hours, and I literally spent hours trying not to even think a thought because I was so afraid it would be unclean and that I would go up in smoke or something. I mean the fear of the Lord was so awesome because He had manifested Himself in the meeting, and everyone felt that way. It was… God is God almighty when the… even the 24 elders cast their crowns at His feet. I think there’d be something of a total attention upon the Lord. I believe we would… Today you can look in a church service under incredibly anointed preaching people are slouched back, they’re chewing gum, they’re looking around, tying their shoes; I mean if the anointing is the Holy Spirit and God is speaking to us, would you do that to the president if you were sitting and had an audience with the president, or prime minister somewhere, or something like that? Would you fidget, would you slouch in your chairs, of course not. I think one thing we don’t really respect the anointing like we should or discern it, but I think when He comes in in His manifest presence you will for sure see Him get everybody’s attention, and most of them are going to hit the floor. Most of them are going to grovel before Him; He is almighty God. That’s one thing, I mean that’s just one thing… We’ve had quite a few meetings where the anointing would come so heavy even our worship team would want to go down on their knees. I had to talk to them and tell them “Look the Levites had to go on doing their duty in the temple even with the presence of the Lord manifest.” I said “You’re Levites you’re leading the worship of the Lord.” I said “You may want to go down, your knees may be buckling, everything else, but stand up.” That’s why we tell people that come to our meetings… you know how many people feel like they have to be slain in the Spirit, but I think a lot them are being slain in the flesh, they’re just taking a dive and not really being knocked down by the Holy Spirit. Since we need to learn to stand in His presence, but if you’re ministering the presence of the King it’s going to be with all the dignity, and respect, and carefulness. You didn’t mess up in the ministry of the tabernacle or the temple, it was such a holy awesome thing. When the Lord comes in in a little way, just gives us a touch of that, I believe we’re gonna again treat all of His ministry so awesome, so holy everything we do. The ushers, I mean to be an usher in the house of the Lord is better than to be a prime minister of a nation. I mean if we really understood eternity that is the truth. We would treat these things with that kind of dignity.

Sid: You have a description in your book of Evan Roberts, the person God used for the great Welsh revival. When he had a change in his life experiencing the glory of God, tell me about that.

Rick: You know Evan Roberts, he was one thing incredibly hungry for God. There was just a drawing in his heart and he followed that drawing. He didn’t become occupied with other things; he decided to lay everything aside to follow the drawing of God. I think that’s required just like Moses had to turn aside and see that burning bush. We might wonder if Moses had not turned aside would the Lord of used him, or chosen somebody else. It almost always requires that stop what you’re doing and esteem, turning aside to God above anything else. Evan Roberts did that, he just shut down his job, his everything. He said “I’m going to pray, I’m going to seek the Lord revivals coming” he knew it in his heart. He turned aside he left his own agenda in all to pursue God. I think that’s fundamental to see this kind of thing. Then he remained incredibly sensitive to the Lord; like the story you talked about earlier in the week, you know, about how the most famous preachers in the world were coming to see him; the most famous reporters and writings were all clambering for just a little time with Evan Roberts during then. Right at the peak of the revival he just disappears for week and goes to seek the Lord and wouldn’t let anyone come near him. He wouldn’t have an audience with anyone because an audience would get “Who’s going to leave the King of kings to meet with a mere man.” He was meeting with the King of kings.

Sid: I’m reminded of a statement in my lifetime; I saw Kathryn Kuhlman and she would always say “Please, don’t grieve the Holy Spirit He’s all that I have.” She would keep pointing people towards God. She would say “Don’t look at me,” and that’s the closest I’ve seen in my lifetime of that type of “Recognizing we’re nothing.”

Rick: Yes. She’s a good example; she had a remarkable ministry of just providing, being a proper host for the Holy Spirit.

Sid: That’s really what our job is, but we’re out of time.

Sid: My guest Mickey Robinson I’m speaking to him at his home in Nashville, Tennessee; Mickey I understand there was a time in your life you thought you were superman.

Mickey:  That’s funny Sid and I don’t think it was every little boy but it was certainly me; I grew up in that era of the TV Superman. I was a child in the 50’s in the post World War.  It was a time that we didn’t realize we had had as American’s after the war that everybody seemed to have a job and prosperity and there was little league.  And one of my heroes was Superman as a child and I wanted the adventure and I always wanted to fly; and yeah he was one of my childhood heroes.

Sid: And you got into something that I’ve only seen on television or in movies sky diving; some of that’s sensation that you were looking for as a kid you wanted to be Superman.

Mickey:   Well, I have to say this “There is a whole lot more than a person could ever imagine and it was never ending.” I was really afraid or I wasn’t doing it to be “A daredevil” I just thought it would be real exhilarating and real stimulating in terms of a person with an adventurist spirit that was in athletics.

Sid: Is it a dangerous sport?

Mickey:  It is if things go wrong. (Laughing)

Sid: As we’ll find out, but what is it like soaring with just you in the wind?

Mickey:   Let’s put it this way some say “Why don’t you get a sinking feeling?”  Well, you don’t because there’s nothing that your body is pressing against anything that’s relative to gravity.  Your first 10 seconds your building up speed then you hit what’s called “Terminal velocity.”  It means going in that position the stomach facing the earth you’re going about 125 miles an hour and you won’t go any faster unless you change your body position.  It actually feels like you’re flying, and your body at that speed makes a tremendous aerodynamic device by manipulating your hands, your arms and your feet, you can fly, you can bank, you can zoom across the sky you can do flips just by making slight movements and it really feels like your flying like Superman.

Sid: Most of your life you felt like you were invincible, you were a confident person but take me to August 15, 1968.

Mickey:  Well, I was a very unusual sky diver in that after 20 jumps I had become a professional.  No one had ever advanced at that level. I was jumping with some of the greatest skydivers on the planet; two of the members of the United States parachute team who had competed for the United States. In the same way we sent Olympic teams over, we have the United States Parachute Team that competes internationally just like the Olympics.  And most of our competition was amongst the communist countries at that time at the height of the cold war. I was asked to be part of the professional demonstration team.  So I was the superstar or super-student. So I was very good at it and I was also a gymnast and a football player and so I knew those moves but it was the pure joy of jumping.  By the time you know I had been jumping for a period of time it was short but very storied period of time in terms jumping with the best in the world and jumping in the crowds of 15,000 people and getting paid for it.  Mostly I was jumping for the pleasure of that freedom you feel in free fall you have anywhere from 30 to 60 seconds prior to opening your parachute where it really feels like your flying or like you’re suspended and flying.  For me it was a momentary like falling into freedom; freedom from thinking about the Vietnam War, was I going to get drafted, thinking about anything.  It was just a pleasure it was like it was addictive obsessive thing with me; it was like a rush your living for one jump at a time.  So on that day of August 15, 1968 evening it was in Ohio, South of Cleveland, Ohio we had a club that we were using for our team and we were just practice jump.  There was three of us professionals that were going out, it was going to be kind of a high altitude jump for us, but letting two students out at lower altitudes. So it was going to require a little bit of flight time to keep gaining altitude and letting a student out, gaining a little bit more altitude and letting another out.  The 3 of us went up to 13,500 feet which would give us about 66 seconds of free fall before you open your parachute.  At that time we had choreographed doing maneuvers in the sky it’s called “Relative work” where you fly together, grab hold of yourself let go, do some maneuvers you do those kind of things usually in front of a whole crowd of people; with smoke trailing off your feet with a military smoke bomb.  Well, it was very routine for me I was never afraid to jump. From the first jump on it only got more and more exciting, and more and more peaceful actually to do it. In that particular jump because I was so carefree and so confident never anticipated anything but living moment by moment.  Shortly after we took off with 5 skydivers in the plane, myself like I said two other guys I jump professionally with and then two students, plus the pilot that was flying.  After we took off in a 6 passenger Piper Cherokee all of a sudden the engine quit; we were about 100 feet a 150 feet in the air and the next thing I knew the pilot turned and struck me on my side and said “That’s it man we’re going down.” We lost all of our lifet there was no time to try and restart the motor. There was a loss of power and flying ability of lift, we went straight – nose straight down plummeting towards the ground.  I’m certain that the view out there looked like it was certain death for everybody in the plane.

Sid: Was there enough time for fear?

Mickey:  The last thing I remember is the pilot saying that to me; waving at the people and actually when we were doing the preflight warm up and all of that we were actually going doze off because it was going to take a long time to get to altitude. That part of it I mean was so obsessed with skydiving it was boring, flying you know. I was just relaxed and I was actually kind of half asleep when we lost the engine and the pilot hit me.  And I don’t even hardly remember that; I do not remember looking out the window and hitting, I vaguely almost remember that state because when we hit that tree and we had removed all the seats except the pilots.  My body went flying forward at 100 miles an hour my face stopped my body on the instrument panel going at 100 miles an hour. So I got a pretty bad head injury although I was still moving around; I don’t remember it.

Sid: Okay but someone pulled you out of the plane tell me the circumstances.

Mickey:  Well, obviously it was a devastating crash; the two students were banged up and in shock; the third guy, a friend, was one of the guys in the professional team pushed them out the door and away from the airplane.  The fourth man that was the closest to the doorway that we were existing from was just turning to get out of the plane he saw me moving as well as the pilot and assumed we were escaping too. Just as taking his first few running steps away a fire started and the plane went up in flames.  He heard screams and realized that the pilot and myself were still inside the aircraft, went back into the plane and this brave man saw me in a state of desperation trying to pull myself though the hole that was made where the wing had been on the right side of the aircraft and my leg sticking out through that hole with my right hand I pulling as hard as I could. Something had me caught and I was soaked with gasoline and burning on fire from head to toe.  And it was just like you’ve seen war movies and things like. Grabbed a hold of my parachute harness and pulled as hard as he could.  Still couldn’t get me out and somehow a miracle took place and he tore the straps loose and dragged me away. Yelled for the pilot and said “Walt I’ll come back and get you.”  After they got the fire out they tried to turn to go get him and the wing on the left side, which had been drained of fuel for weight purposes, popped open and it was too hot and they couldn’t get him.  He unfortunately he perished. So I was obviously laying on the ground and paramedics came back and you know I was kind of vaguely in a dream like way remember some of this but it was very… I had been hurt and they put me on the stretcher and put me in the ambulance and raced to the closes little hospital; they didn’t know if I’d even make it there.  They put the oxygen mask on my face. The whole right side of my face slid off and fell on the ground.  My rescuer panicked.

Sid: Say that again, “The whole right side of your face slid off.”

Mickey:  When the put the oxygen mask on my face, yeah.

Sid: Oh my goodness.

Mickey:  My rescuer was in you know he was in a state of shock and he punched the ambulance driver, and took his jump masters knife out and cut off the mask and fed the hose and held it in my mouth, the oxygen mask in his hands as they raced to the hospital.  They cut what was left of my clothing and the equipment off and saw that I had sustained very very severe burns over a large portion of my body.  I had a brain injury, my right eye had been burned it was blinded obvious cuts and lacerations and horrible injuries. And even though I was a professional athlete in perfect health they didn’t know if I would make it through the night.  A burn like that and add that to injury the shock a lot of times just kills your body just can’t take the shock. Well, I made it through the night you know and then made it through the next day, then my brain began to swell and so I didn’t remember any of this but was what was told to me is that my head swelled up it was twice the size you know.  And then inside my brain began to swell against the skull and then I developed complications and they did all the heroics. They tried as hard as they could to care for me medically to care for me with antibiotics and bandages and that.  But I got infection all over my body; I was having internal bleeding, bleeding ten pints a day.  I had massive weight loss in a few weeks I went from that professional athlete stature to muscle to down to 90 pounds.  I looked like a picture from the holocaust; I developed sores in my body where my bones stuck through with decubitus ulcers in both nerve systems in the front part of my legs had died, and my legs had withered up.  And after they tried all they could through medical, medication, and skin grafts and all of that business they brought an expert in from one of the leading hospitals, educational hospitals in the nation, Case Western Reserve in Cleveland. They brought in a burn expert in from of the leading educational hospitals in Reserve in which was in Cleveland a burn expert and he examined me; in his report he wrote “There is simply nothing that can be done for this young man.”

Sid: So they brought your family, and they called your sister because…

Mickey:   They called them and I said yeah, both of my sisters had infants just weeks before and a lot of people just came in and stayed for a day and to come in for just one minute you know three times a day because it was constant care.  On this particular day after they just decided to let me alone and let nature take its course. They called my sister and said “Barbara,” that’s also my wife’s name, “Barb you better come in to your brother because he won’t be here this afternoon.”  And I remember being… and sometimes Sid you know I was out in a coma other times I was kind of in the twilight zone, but sometimes I was awake.  And I want you to know that the pain…

Sid: You know what we’re out of time. We’ll pick up right here on tomorrow’s broadcast.  He has an encounter with Jesus.

Sid: I believe my guest this week is going to cause your thermostat to just explode it’s going to go through the top of the glass.  He’s name is Graham Cooke and for those that aren’t familiar with Graham he is…now you don’t like titles Graham but you are a mentor of prophets, you’re a mentor for people to go all the way with God rather than settle for stinking thinking of a religious mindset filled with tradition learned by man.  So let’s find out a little bit about your background, one day you walk into a church, but there was something missing in this church; tell me about that.

Graham: Yeah, it’s actually my very first church experience I’d become a Christian and I had heard the audible voice of God coming from a totally unchurched nonreligious background.

Sid:  As you put it you were the first white sheep in your family.

Graham: Yeah, (laughing) yeah that’s right and so my salvation experience of God was so profound that I heard his audible voice and so of course I have no other, I have no capacity to measure any other way.

Sid: Now tell me your salvation experience; I don’t know about it.

Graham: Well, I got saved in a youth camp and…

Sid:  I mean I had a profound experience but I wasn’t going around hearing the audible voice of God.

Graham: Yes, so I’d come to this camp, I was staying with some people and just looking to really change my life and connect with something different. I had no idea what that was and I’d listen to the message and it had really touched me deeply about Christ as savior, but I just had no paradigm for it so I didn’t go forward because I was thinking, “I don’t know what this about.” And I don’t know what I’m committing myself to and I was a little bit wary so I escaped the meeting and I went for a walk and then came back to the camp and latter on when everyone was in bed sat in the original meeting tent and in the end I said out loud, “Well, Lord if Your real then make Yourself real to me because if that is true I want to get to know You.”  And then I heard this audible voice, I looked around in the tent there was nobody there and the voice just said, “I’ve been looking forward to meeting you for a long time.”  And it didn’t sound like anyone’s voice I knew and I looked around and I walked around the tent and I couldn’t hear anybody so I sat down and I thought “Well, maybe I’m catching a snatch of conversation from somewhere else.”  And so I come back just saying “Well, Lord you know I need to get back focusing on this thing so if Your there make Yourself real to be because I don’t know what’s true and what’s not true but I just know my heart was really touched.”  I can’t remember the exact words I used but that was the expression. Again I heard this voice saying “I’ve wanted to meet you for a long time and you and I are going to go on a journey together.”  And it just suddenly struck me that “Oh, my goodness” I just foolishly said, “You’re going to think this is really dumb but I don’t know what to say, is this God?”  It’s almost like you know “Earth to Heaven I don’t know what to do I don’t know what to say and I heard this just quiet laughter.”  “Of course it is and you and I were going to go on a journey and it’s going to take your whole life and your life will be completely different.”  And just began speaking to me about who I was going to be, what I was going to do and that there would be painful times, difficult times but He would never leave me nor forsake me.  And Sid I didn’t know what to do with myself I have to say, but that really began my journey.

Sid:  So you must have been so excited going to your first church, what was it like?

Graham:  Yeah because I had had a few days in the camp and I’m trying to explain to people I heard God’s voice and just at the youth camp an everyone’s really skeptical thinking “Am I having some kind of meltdown or something.”  And so… but every time I walked away and I began just to have times with God I would hear His voice, I would hear His voice audibly or I would heard His voice like in my heart coming into my head; and so I would hear it on the inside and I would hear externally.  And so this was a normal thing for me so I remember I got back home; I was so excited I bought a Bible, a notebook, I went to my first church service, I just picked the church that was closest to my home.  And I’m walking down the street and I’m talking to the Lord so excited and I get into the building and I lose the presence of God.  So I’m in the foyer of this church and I can’t feel God’s presence.  So I look around and Sid this is where I’m as green as grass okay, I look into the sanctuary, He’s not there.

Sid:  You must have panicked.

Graham: Well, I got back into the foyer and I look and there’s the men’s rest room, so I’m just stupidly thinking “Ah, he’s in there.”

Sid: (Laughing)

Graham: So I’m 19 years old, an experience that’s radically changing my life and I just have no way of what is the normal way to deal with this.  And so I’m waiting outside, nobody talks to me at all so eventually it’s 5 or 6 minutes and I’m getting really concerned about God in the rest room so I remember sticking my head inside the restroom and I’m calling out, “Are you okay?”  But he’s not in there.

Sid:  Did you really do that Graham?

Graham: Honest I just have no, I mean I’m as green as anything, I don’t know what to do.

Sid:  Are you okay?

Graham:  Are you okay? And there’s nothing, He’s not there so I walk back on to the street and there He is.  So I’m saying “Are You not coming in?”  And He said to me, “Well, I’m not welcome in that place.”  And so I said, “If you’re not going I’m not going.”  And we walked home and that was it. (Laughing)

Sid:  So obviously you didn’t know where to go, but then you had another dream that told you where to go, tell me about that.

Graham: Yeah, it was a while later I had managed to kind of get myself thrown out of most churches in the city because people didn’t have a paradigm for what I was experiencing. So I’m starting to realize that what I’m reading in the Bible is actually not what I’m seeing in terms of church.  And so I’m talking to the Father about this, “So what do I do I feel like a fish out of water, I feel like I don’t connect anywhere.”  And then when I had a dream about walking down a certain road and there was a house and I looked at the number of the house, in the dream I went and rang the doorbell.  And I had an encounter with the person who was the house owner. The next night I had another dream that same road, but different house had an encounter with that person.  And so after two of those dreams I went and found a map of the city and this road isn’t on any map of the city so I said to the person who owns the store, “Is this an up to date map?”  And he said, “Well, it’s up to date but it doesn’t have anything that’s being built on the last twelve months.”  And so I went down to city hall found an up to date map and there’s this road. So I took a bus across town and there’s the road in my dream exactly as I saw it; all the houses exactly as I saw them.  So I started walking down this road and I came to this house, the number and I in the dream my encounter with the people there was there was a women whose husband had left her, she had a 6 year old son, who was incontinent, he was constantly bed wetting, she had a baby and her washing machine had broken down.  And in the dream I laid hands on her washing machine and it recovered.  (Laughing)

Sid: So did you become like an actor on the stage and just act out what you saw in your dream, or were you too nervous?

Graham: Well, I didn’t know what else to do and I’m learning that God does like something like when He’s teaching you something new He takes you a step at a time and so you have to take that step before He shows you the next one.  So I had nothing else to do so I went and rang the doorbell and my thing was…

Sid:  You know you got chutzpah, that’s a Hebrew word it’s called nerve!

Graham: (Laughing) Well my thought was if the woman doesn’t look like she did in the dream then I’m just going to make an excuse and leave, yeah.  And so that was my out and she opened the door and it’s exactly how I saw her in the dream.

Sid: I’ll tell you what why don’t you hold that thought we’ll pick up right here on tomorrow’s broadcast.  But I want you to tell me if you had had the book your latest book “Approaching the Heart of Prophecy” when you were first starting what difference would it have made if you could have read such a book as this.

Graham: Oh my gosh, I would have like, I would have grown a heck of lot faster than I did.  I mean I must have fallen down every hole that’s possible to fall down.

Sid:  Describe this book.

Graham: Well, Sid when we started there weren’t any books that described prophesy there was no kind of paradigm for it, most people it seem couldn’t even spell prophecy let alone know what it was.  So all my mistakes were public, you know because you just learn by doing, so for me…

Sid: I wish I had read this book 35 years ago.

Graham: You and me both.

Sid:  I have to tell you because I have a real prophetic bent in it but I was taking it more Old Testament than New Testament.

Graham: Yeah, yeah, that’s the normal way actually most people…

Sid: I mean I thought I was John the Baptist.

Graham:  (Laughter) So for me the benefit of the book is that people can benefit from all the mistakes I made.  You know when you do something for the first time you learn how not to do it.

Sid:   But listen, I after 35 years just reading a little of the book and then the notes I’ve benefited immensely.

Graham: But it tells you clearly it tells you what you’re going to learn in this chapter, it then lays out a pattern of teaching on a particular topic and then there are lots of exercises and assignments you can do.

Sid: its true mentoring and we don’t have mentoring by men and women that have walked the walk.

Graham: Yeah, so if you do the exercises it leads you into an actual experience.