Sid: You know what Mishpochah someone was just healed; someone has a pain in their back and another person in their neck. If you’ll just bend over; if you’re driving please pull the side of the road. But if you’ll just bend over or move your head you’ll see the anointing of God has set you free. We serve such a good God; but there is according to a prophecy given several years ago by Dr. Kenneth Hagin who is a genuine Prophet of God who is with the Lord. We’re coming into a very critical time in 2005; we’re coming into a… he called it a year of judgment. But if we judge ourselves we will not be judged. And there’s a brand new book that’s just come out called “The Missing Ingredient to Success” by Pastor Michael Cameneti pastors Canton Christian Fellowship in Canton, Ohio. I almost want to take a word out of your title I’ve been trying to do it. I’d rather call your book “The Missing Ingredient.” Rather than “The Missing Ingredient to Success” because when you hear success many times you think Michael in terms of monetary things. But the most important things in life money can’t buy.
Michael: Very true and it really is a book about success in God; not just success with money or success with those types of things. The most successful thing I think all of us could do is walk with God on this earth and serve Him and be on fire and advance the Kingdom of God. Bring people into the Kingdom of God.
Sid: And every true believer wants to do this but the worries of life the business of this life; the concerns of this life many have gotten bogged down and have lost their first love. And there’s little foxes that you’re bringing to our attention. The big fox you bring to our attention in your book but little foxes they do a number. And one of the areas that you’ve been talking about and this was in the Kenneth Hagin prophecy; judging ourselves. And you were talking about judging others. And I’m having a little difficulty; what if… let’s just have something hypothetical. A television ministry the minister has fallen into let’s say homosexual sin. And he’s still on the air; what should our position be? We just read Charisma Magazine about this, what should our position be?
Michael: Well, our position as a believer; as a Christian would be first of all I believe we judge fruit. And the fruit is okay; if there is something there that is not right that is not good then I would not personally; this is my personal opinion I would not personally put myself under someone who is living in sin; who is in outright sin. Now Sid that’s different than you and I missing it here and there because none of us are perfect. I never… I make sure to my church that I always let them know that I am not a perfect individual and no one worked on this earth perfect except Jesus. But as a believer I’m not to dabble in things that are that way; I’m not to be dabbling in homosexuality or pornography on the internet whatever it is the church today is having their struggles with. I recently was talking to a man that he runs a counseling place that ministers to ministers. And I thought that this was very interesting Sid. He said that the increase of ministers coming to them now for pornography issues has increased by 150%. And he said “The reason being” because I asked the question why? I mean why, why would that increase so much now? And he said “Well a minister who pastors in his home town would never go down to the corner store and buy pornography. He said, “But now because of the availability and access to the internet he said “Ministers are catching themselves in pornography because it’s so easy to avail themselves.”
Sid: Listen, on my computer I am getting email. I don’t know how it started but I am getting pornographic email. So I called the computer company and they said “Oh, this is easy and they said we’ll send a warning letter to these people just notify us and you press down on the key and you notify them. Well, I have found out as a result of notifying them they know now that I’m getting it and they’re selling my name to other pornographic people. I mean, it bothers me that it’s even on my computer that is not a problem in my life but I can see how it’s so easy for someone to fall down that slippery slope.
Michael: Yes and to get back to your question because I want to make sure people hear the answer to this. As a believer we need to be praying for these ministers or any believer we need to pray for them. I think the key issue is seeing a heart of repentance.
Sid: What’s the fine line between gossip to warn someone that’s say watching that show or do we not do this?
Michael: Well, as a Christian you know the Bible is against gossip we know that. I believe gossip is definitely something that God in this hour does not want us to do. So I believe if a minister has fallen and it’s going to hurt or it’s going to affect another person’s life and they are clueless about this they don’t even know that something is going on. I believe number 1 the Lord would protect them; but number 2 if we have knowledge of the fact that there is a minister who has fallen and I know someone in our church who’s submitting their lives to him and listening to their teaching. As a Pastor; as a Shepherd I think that I would reach out to them and say “You’re going to need to watch there because this individual has a problem in their life.” I would handle it as delicately as I could but at the same time we’re out to protect the believer, we’re out to protect the sheep. That’s what God entrusted me to do; so I believe there is a very fine line Sid.
Sid: Why would you handle it as delicate as you could?
Michael: In the sense of you don’t want them to become critical. What would happen is that if you just tell someone that they’re in sin you need to stop. Then they become critical about everyone. And they begin to look at everyone and I wonder if that pastor is in sin; or I wonder if that ministers in sin? We want to have a heart that’s open to receive the word but at the same time Jesus made it very clear in His word that we are to judge fruit; we’re to know people by their fruit. So I believe we’re to look at fruit and say “This individual the fruit they’re manifesting is not something that is good so I’m going to have to stay away from them.” Now Jesus…
Sid: If I’m understanding you right as far as judging if it’s a proven fact and it’s warning that’s under that ministry then that is the correct thing to do. But anything beyond that boarders on gossip.
Michael: Right, here’s something that I thought was very interesting it’s in my book if people want to get the book and find out more about this. But I’ll put it in a quick nutshell. The Bible says in Revelations “The devil is the accuser of the brethren” so we know that he accuses people. So it’s sort of like this; as a believer I don’t want to be accusing others a brother or a sister because then I’m if you would side of the devil is. I’m accusing brethren just like he is. Now again it’s a difference between if it’s a minister in fact Sid the Bible’s very clear Timothy who was a pastor. Paul wrote to him and he was talking about ministers. And he said “Ministers deserve double honor; talking about a pastor; but if you have a minister who sins and they’re living in sin you’re to bring them before all and they’re to repent and there’s to be a fear before all because this minister is living wrong and it’s got confronted” But in the society that we’re living in today it’s almost like we can be an island unto ourselves we don’t have anyone who’s over us a lot of times and so we just go ahead if we get into sin we keep on preaching. We keep on doing the things that we’re doing.
Sid: What would you recommend to someone that says “You know I’m really convicted I’ve been talking about that person and that’s gossip I know it’s gossip.” What should they do just keep quiet or do they go to that person or what do you recommend?
Michael: Well, I recommend what the Bible says and this is what the Bible says Jesus is teaching in Matthew’s gospel. And Jesus said “If you have something against a brother or a sister go to them directly.” And so whether this works I have something against me Jesus made it clear; don’t go to your brother, don’t go to your sister don’t tell anyone at this point. Go to them and try to get this straightened out. Instead in the church we’ll talk about them and we’ll say things to other people about them and then finally the person you’re talking about hears about it and they’ll come and tell this Christian “You’ve been talking about me” and they’ll say “I haven’t been talking.” And so a lot of times we don’t want to deal with that confrontation or deal with the situation. My advice to someone who might be listing today that if you’ve been gossiping about someone; you’ve been talking about someone go to them and just tell them “I have a problem and this is why this is what you’ve done you’ve hurt me or this is what you’ve done to me.” Try to get the thing to where it’s straightened out.
Sid: Now you know what I have found that the things that we have in our mind are based on some truth but when we go to the person we find out that a lot of it had some exaggeration and it’s not as bad as we thought.
Michael: That’s exactly true and the reason why Sid I believe is because the devil he likes to put thoughts in our minds. We have to resist those thoughts; so many times when we have something specifically against a person the devil likes to put thoughts in there and say “Well, you have this.” And then he makes it even worse and you’re exactly right you go to the person you talk to them and you find out that this isn’t even as bad. And our job is just to go to them and say “Hey, I’m sorry or if you have done something to me that hurt me or offended me.” Our job is not to make that other person say “I’m sorry or I repent.” Now if they do that I believe that there can be complete restoration. Some people will say “That’s too bad; I don’t believe I’ve done that.” And then at that point there’s a second step that Jesus said and I believe it’s to bring it to your pastor or to some of the ministers in the church. The elders in the church and then you approach them with those people. And then if that person still doesn’t repent the Bibles says bring it before the church. Well Sid you know that this is a 3 step thing that we’re not doing and a lot of churches you don’t want to do that you don’t want to bring someone up before the church. Or bring the situation up before the church and say that. But Jesus gave us 3 steps in Matthew’s gospel to do and I believe if we did that we would see a lot less of what goes on sin wise in the church.
Sid: Michael, why is there so much gossip going on in the church?
Michael: Well, I believe that Proverbs said that it’s something that the Lord actually hates; I mean He despises this. And I think that the devil does everything that he can to get us side tracked on peoples’ problems. Paul said it this way Sid, he said “I look at no man after the flesh.” And the reason he said that was because if you look after their flesh you’re going to find something that you don’t like you’ll find something that you can talk about.
Sid: Michael, we’re out of time.