SID: Hello. Sid Roth here. Welcome. Welcome to my world, you guys are really enthusiastic, where it’s naturally supernatural. One of the signs of the soon return of the Messiah is Jewish people coming to believe that Jesus is the anointed one, is the Messiah, not just of Israel, but of the whole world. Well my guest is a Jewish woman from Brooklyn that had surgery, that supernaturally, this wasn’t the purpose for the surgery, but supernaturally her voice changed and she has a voice like Barbra Streisand. Now Michelle, you don’t know this, but I love the Brooklyn accent. I love people that were born in Brooklyn. And you’re Jewish. You were born and raised in Brooklyn, one of my favorite places. But if someone had said to you as a young person, what is your belief in God, what would you have said?

MICHELLE: First of all, thank you for loving my hometown. I’m a Brooklyner, I’m a little Jewish girl from Brooklyn, darling, you know. But my family growing up believed God was very far away. If he did exist at all, my dad actually wasn’t even sure he existed because of the Holocaust and all the horrible crusades, and things that happened to Jews. So my, we weren’t really sure there was a God and I didn’t feel connected to God if there was one at that time.

SID: Did you ever go to synagogue on high holidays?

MICHELLE: Yes we did. High holidays we went, especially Yom Kippur, Rosh Hashanah, yeah.

SID: Okay. Now you were raised in a pretty abusive situation. Your mom was bipolar, a lot of fighting going on. You had verbal abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse.

MICHELLE: You know Sid, I grew up with a mother who was bipolar, manic-depressive. I’m not sure you’ve experienced that, but it’s basically a swing of behaviors from extremely happy, joyful, fun, supportive to extremely sad or angry. And in my case, it was extremely traumatizing. My mom would get so angry that she would actually wrestle me to the ground in anger. Later on, she explained that she would actually see red and couldn’t even control this behavior. It was a completely chemical imbalance. And she would then apologize and say, “I am so sorry. I love you, I love you, I love you.” This was traumatizing for me.

SID: But at age eight something amazing happened to you. Explain.

MICHELLE: I remember crying out in my little bedroom. I had this beautiful bedroom with a pretty canopy. I felt so safe there. And I would pray, I cried out, “God, whoever you are, wherever you are, I just want to die.” I can’t believe an eight year old would think that. I have a six year old. But it is just amazing they have the capacity to feel even that much pain. And I felt, I heard the voice of God in my heart at that very moment. It was so awesome. He said, “Michelle Gold, you cannot die. I have a plan and a purpose for your life. You’re going to sing and write songs, and your songs are going to bring healing to the world.”

SID: Now in your house, music was like a god.

MICHELLE: Oh my goodness, yeah. I mean, in some ways it was fun. We sat around the piano. Mom sang like Ethel Merman. My dad sings like Tony Bennett. He’s such a beautiful man. And my brother sounds like a lead singer of Metallica. You can imagine the sounds in my house.

SID: So you’re going to be rich and famous. You go to Miami and you meet your cousin. He’s going to make you a star. But he does something different. You’re walking on the beach.

MICHELLE: Oh my gosh, what a shock.

SID: And he leads you to the Messiah.

MICHELLE: What a shock. Oh my gosh. I went to Florida to be famous. You know, a lot of people think, you know, you have this emptiness and you want to fill it up, and different things. And I always thought fame. That’s it. I just need to be known. If people knew me they would love me and I would feel fulfilled. But it’s so not true. So not true. But at the time, I fled to Florida My cousin was a Jewish believer in Yeshua Jesus. He was actually partly disowned by some of the family. My uncle was the very first, my mother’s brother, to receive Jesus, and was, he was actually someone we were not allowed to speak to. He told my cousin and my cousin told me on Miami Beach in the middle of a production session. We took a break, walking along the beach, and he said, “Michelle, Jesus is the Messiah.” He said, “All the first believers were Jewish people. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, they were Jewish. And the most Jewish thing you can do is believe in your Messiah. You know, at the time you didn’t need to explain Isaiah 53 or even those awesome scriptures, but I believed it. I had the faith of a child. I said, “Right now I receive Jesus right now as my Messiah.” And this beautiful grace came over me. It was awesome.

SID: You know, what Michelle is describing right now is, there’s a Hebrew word. It’s called

“shalom.” In fact, would you go sing that for us right now.

MICHELLE: That would be awesome. I’d love to do that.

SID: You see, with Jesus you have shalom. Without Jesus, you don’t have shalom. You say, oh Sid, there’s got to be another way. No. There’s no other name given on to man in which we must be saved. His name is, in Hebrew, Yeshua, in English, Jesus.

MICHELLE: [music, singing] [Hebrew] How can I rejoice when my people are crying. How can I sing when Jerusalem is… Can you hear me calling shalom, shalom, shalom. My people cry shalom. I see Christ. Shalom. We say shalom, shalom, shalom. My people cry shalom. I see Christ. Shalom. Thousands of years have come and gone. What have we learned, what have we become. When will this war come to an end. I’m looking forward to the day when Messiah comes to join me, I’ll turn to my enemy and say, you’re my sister, you’re my brother and say shalom! Shalom! I’ll turn to my enemy and say shalom! Shalom, my people cry. Shalom!

SID: So my guest David Herzog, I’ve been out to his home, I’ve known him many years, and he’s a pretty healthy guy. And not only is he a pretty healthy guy, he’s married, he has three daughters and his family is pretty healthy. In fact, they’re in the front row. Would you stand up for a moment. Thank you. There’s the Herzog family. Now David, you’re obviously doing something right. But tell me a bit about what I am holding in front of me. This is juice. It’s just been juiced just a few minutes ago. You told me every morning when you wake up, what do you do as far as eating or drinking?

DAVID: I make a different smoothie like you’re drinking right there. That looks really good. How’s that?

SID: Well we Jews, Gentiles are to provoke the jealousy. We’re both in trouble. Someone from a non-Jewish background won’t want to drink this. No, I’m just teasing.

DAVID: You’ve got in there living food. You’ve got like what I do in the morning, I put like kale, berries like that’s in there, avocados, all kind of living antioxidants, this coconut water as a base, I think is in there. So it’s so tasty. It’s like liquid energy going right in your body, heals your body, energizes you. And then you go pray after that, watch out, you’re going to have a good prayer time.

SID: Now let me ask you some practical questions. Organic food you recommend, it’s more expensive.

DAVID: Yeah.

SID: Why is organic food better than regular food?

DAVID: Well they don’t put all the toxins, all the sprays, all the pesticides, you don’t want all that junk in your body. Really bad for you. And you get way more nutrients. When you buy an organic apple, for instance, or a pear, you get like ten times more the nutrients than a non-organic. So you actually get way more for your money.

SID: Now when you teach, you teach about something, frankly, I don’t know much about and I don’t see why it’s so important. You talk about the need for every year to have a cleanse of your colon, of your liver. Explain why you say things like that.

DAVID: Sure. Because every year as you get older, your body doesn’t process the things like it used to, especially in our modern world. So you got meats that are sitting in your body from years and years.

SID: Wait. Really and truly?

DAVID: Oh yeah.

SID: From years?

DAVID: Yes.

SID: How gross.

DAVID: Exactly.

SID: But not just gross. That’s got to be awfully unhealthy.

DAVID: Yeah. And so it creates a toxic environment. It creates really bad sludge in your colon, in your liver, which eventually leads to cancers and sickness. You get that out of your body then your body can function like it’s supposed to.

SID: Well what about someone that doesn’t sleep well at night? I know about how important sleep is. But if you’re not sleeping, what do you do about it?

DAVID: Well if you’re not sleeping at night, first of all, see what you’re doing that may be causing it. So an hour before you got to bed if you start to cut off all electronics—that keeps you awake.

SID: Why would electronics?

DAVID: Because electromagnetic frequencies are so fast on the technology we have today, it keeps you awake. TV, movies, cell phones, I-pads. And like your grandparents, I bet you when the sun went down on their day they just went to bed. A lot of people’s grandparents, these days, people can’t sleep and kids can’t sleep. The mind gets too active. The body gets activated. So that’s one thing they can to help them sleep.

SID: You know, I heard you teach and you said something I’ve never heard before. He said that if I went to bed earlier I would get better sleep. Now I’m thinking, no, I want to stay up late so the minute my head hits the pillow I’m going to fall asleep. But he says the opposite. He says, go to bed at 10 p.m. Why do you say that?

DAVID: Well between 10 p.m. and 2 a.m. your liver starts to detox. So if you consistently sleep really late at night, past one, two in the morning, your body doesn’t have the chance to detox. So you take eight hours of sleep from 10 p.m. Or if you went to bed at 2 a.m., you will feel way more refreshed at 10 p.m. getting eight hours. Those who sleep late sometimes require more sleep because of that.

SID: Now there’s a word that doctors like to use a lot. It’s called “stress”. And tell me about stress and tell me what can be done about it.

DAVID: Sure. There are different kinds of stress. There’s of course emotional stress, issues in your heart that you don’t deal with. The Bible says, “Don’t let the sun go down with anger,” for instance, that’s a stress. So is reliving emotional issues. There’s electromagnetic stress like your cell phone right next to your bedside, many people can’t sleep. Until they put it away, suddenly they can sleep. So there’s mental, there’s spiritual stress, there physical stress on your body. There’s not sleeping. And so all those create a perfect storm. And even people have stress at work. They think, oh my gosh, my boss wants to talk to me today. I’m so scared. Maybe he’s going to fire me. They think the worst. Perception creates stress. So changing your mindset, your emotions, your heart, your spirit, and you can leave stress that way.

SID: Now I’m going to tell you a secret about David Herzog. I know that for some strange reason he started eating garlic one day like an apple. Why did you do that? You didn’t think I’d tell them. Okay.

DAVID: I knew he was going to pull one on me. I was in Indonesia and—

SID: This is very good, by the way. You know what? Wouldn’t it help just if I took some berries and a banana, and some kale, and just munched it down rather than work with a blender?

DAVID: Well what you just did there, you just saved about an hour, a couple hours actually of your body digesting it, of you chewing it. So it goes right into your blood stream as opposed to eating the same ingredients. First of all, you wouldn’t be able to eat it all. A lot of times you’ll get full. Secondly, that goes straight into your bloodstream. You don’t have to break it down. You get instant energy, instant nutrients.

SID: Okay. I want to know about eating garlic like an apple.

DAVID: Well basically I had an abscessed tooth. I was in Indonesia doing some very large meetings. And for two nights, I couldn’t sleep. My tooth was just hurting me so bad. So I said, what am I going to do? And I started researching and asking God to help me and show me. Usually He heals me, but this time, He told me, “I want you to be healed naturally.” He told me, and I found it on the Internet after praying, garlic. Chew on a clove of garlic on that part of your tooth where it’s abscessed. I started doing that for about half an hour and it was gone. It has never come back since. Because garlic acts like an antibiotic, but better with no side effects.

SID: Now why do you say, have food that isn’t processed or isn’t cooked, to have just raw, organic food.

DAVID: Sure.

SID: Frankly, that doesn’t sound real tasty to me.

DAVID: Oh if you think that’s good, you’ll love our dishes that we do. They’re wonderful.

SID: This is great.

DAVID: Well you can make really healthy tasting, really tasty raw foods: raw ice cream, raw pizzas. Raw is good because all the enzymes are in there.

SID: What do enzymes do?

DAVID: Well when you’re young, you can go eat all the pizza you want and you don’t gain weight. After a certain age, you eat a little cake, you gain weight. You eat pizza, you gain weight. You can’t get it off. So because of enzymes your body isn’t producing. Raw food has all the enzymes in it. So as you age you want raw foods so all the things in your body come out quickly. Basically whatever you eat, if it doesn’t come out, it’s still there.

SID: On that, we’ll be right back. But trust me, there is going to be an eruption of miracles, I promise you. Don’t go away.

SID: You know when we started the show we were talking about a move of God’s spirit in Finland. This would not have happened if Finland wasn’t such a friend of the Jew in Israel. This would not have happened unless someone who understands the Glory of God was sent to Finland. David, what is the Glory of God?

DAVID: The Glory of God is how you would feel if you were in Heaven. It’s the atmosphere, the air of Heaven. That’s the Glory of God. And having that on the earth as it is in Heaven. How is it in Heaven? No sickness, no sorry, no pain, no lack, joy, peace, love, ecstasy of God, intimacy with God, all that that we hope to get when we die and go to Heaven now on the earth. That’s the Glory.

SID: Okay. What is the difference between someone having the Messiah of Israel living inside of them, their sins forgiven, the presence of God inside of them, praying for the sick, or having the Glory of God all around? You know, I almost believe that Adam and Eve who had the Glory of God around them, that was their clothing.

DAVID: Exactly.

SID: [It] was the Glory of God.

DAVID: Yes.

SID: So why do we need the Glory of God if we’re born from above, our sins are forgiven and the presence of God is inside of us?

DAVID: I meet a lot of Christians that are frustrated, even ministers, they’re doing the stuff, they’re praying for the sick, they’re seeing some results, but deep down inside they say something is missing. They’re saved, they love God, they’re not living in sin, but they’re missing something. And they get so desperate to tap into God they press in and they come into this Glory of God, and they say, that’s what I’ve been looking for. Because the Bible says, “All that sin come short of the Glory of God.” So when we find that glory it is like a cloak around us, and in the Glory, things are different. Like you can just speak someone’s name and say, “Bob, be healed of cancer,” who is like 3000 miles away, and they’re instantly healed. No distance in the Glory. No time in the Glory. And just the gifting and anointing, a lot of times people think, I have to go pray for someone, drive three hours, lay hands on my mother-in-law. But in the Glory, it expands and there’s no distance, there’s no time. God bends the time continuum in the Glory.

SID: Tell me one instance that comes to mind when you operated in the Glory, one true instance.

DAVID: Okay. I was driving my car one time to from across the country of France. It was an eight-hour drive with my wife, and my friend driving us. And we were late, and it was eight hours, and we just worshipped God, praising the Lord, and we started feeling lighter, and lighter, and lighter, and two hours into the drive we were already there on the border of Belgium, the complete other side of the country. That’s impossible in the natural. Even going as fast as you can go, that was the Glory. The Glory bends time.

SID: That sounds pretty exciting. I mean, because time, that’s important on this side of Heaven. But David, how can I move in that Glory? How can those that are watching us right now move in that Glory? I mean, it sounds so wonderful. I experience the Glory from time to time. But I want it to be with me 24/7. How did you move into this realm?

DAVID: Well number one, I was just desperate. I just said, God, I have to have it. You have that desperateness, too, and I know people watching have that. Just, God, I so desire to be in your presence, in your Glory 24/7. If you desire it, the hungry will be filled. If you’re hungry and desperate you’ll get it. And then there’s other things you can do. When I wake up in the morning I praise and worship God because “we’ll enter His courts with praise,” the Bible says. So I praise, worship Him and His presence begins to come. And then there’s the blood. I say, “Lord, cleanse me of everything that is wrong that you know, conscious or unconscious.” And blood is the access into the supernatural. It’s the access to the throne. “Come boldly to the throne.” Where’s the throne? In Heaven. So in the Glory you can actually go into your heavenly place. We’re seated in heavenly places. And you begin to pray from your heavenly seat and things start to happen on the earth.

SID: Now can you pray for a release of the Glory that we can be clothed in the Glory of God. Could you pray for us right now?

DAVID: We lift our hands to you, Father, in the name of Jesus. We thank you for your Glory, Lord. Cleanse us in your blood and give us access to your throne. You said we’re seated in heavenly places. Open the realm of Glory right now and put people in a presence of God that you’ve never had before. And I can see Heaven. I see a door. I see the throne of God. I see the myriads of angels. I see Yeshua on the throne. And just go into that realm right now and then present your case before the Lord. Worship Him, love on Him. Live in that heavenly realm. I just decree glory to come on everyone watching and everyone in the studio audience, in Jesus’ name.

SID: Now I feel the presence of God, David. But you told me you experienced a greater quantity of this Glory when you were in Finland.

DAVID: Yes.

SID: Than you’ve ever done in your life. I believe that that same glory has followed you here.

DAVID: Yes.

SID: And I believe there are people that doctors have said, you have a short while to live because you have cancer. There are people here that need a new heart. There are people here that need a new kidney. There are people here that have diabetes. There are people here with pain all over their body. There are people here so depressed they’re crying on the inside, but smiling on the outside. Would you pray for them right now.

DAVID: Sure, I’ll pray right now. Father, in Jesus’ name I thank you right now for those who are watching and those in the studio audience that you would do the same glory, the same miracles as we saw in Finland just recently, where blind eyes were opened, deaf ears were opening, so many souls were being saved. That same glory that we just experienced days ago to come on people watching right now. Let your Glory come, Lord. I decree cancers are gone in Jesus’ name. Weight loss miracles are happening right here on the studio and on television right now. I see deaf ears opening up in Yeshua’s mighty name. I see those with metals in their body, metals, go right now. Skin diseases being healed, back conditions that they’ve had for years, the bones, the ligaments, the sciatic nerves, the tailbone, everything to line up and the discs right now in Jesus’ name. Spots in your eyes, cataracts, floaters, go. Someone on medication and the medication is really causing side effects, I command your body to be healed right now. Insomnia being healed right now. Depression, breaks, paralysis, you can’t walk or you can’t move your arm. Body parts, paralysis be healed in Jesus’ name. A lady named Mary that’s watching right now and you have a major issue with your throat and you’re immune system, and Mary, be healed now in Jesus’ mighty name. And there are so many others. If you’re sick in your body just lay hands on the part of your body that’s sick right now in Jesus’ name. And I decree right through the television and in the studio audience you’re being healed. Even someone missing hair, hair is growing, thickening. Bald spots start to grow. That fuzzy little hair begin to grow right now. Teeth miracles are happening. Missing teeth, crooked teeth, teeth with holes in them, I declare them all heal now in Jesus’ name.

SID: David, the greatest miracle is about ready to happen. If you believe Jesus died for your sins and you’ve told him you’re sorry for your sins, and ask him to live inside of you and say, “Jesus, you are my Lord,” it is done in Heaven as on Earth.

SID: Hello. Welcome to my world where it’s naturally supernatural. I think about Adam and Eve. I think about what life was like not knowing fear, what life was like with such an intellect and brain, and memory, that they could name every animal and create the name themselves, all the animals on Earth, what it would be like to not experience sickness, what it would be like to hear God absolutely clear. Is it possible to recapture what the first men and women had, but lost? My guest wants to mentor you because he says there’s more. There’s so much more. So David, as long as I’ve known you, you have operated in what is called the Glory of God. You have seen, I know this is hard for some of you to believe, but David has seen people like his own father where there’s no hair, the hair grows. David has seen, tell me about it, your father is Jewish.

DAVID: Yes.

SID: What happened to him?

DAVID: Oh you know, he doesn’t have a lot of hair. And during the meeting I had a word that someone is growing hair. He checked his hair and the bald spot starts to fill in.

SID: Now I have personally been at David’s meetings sitting behind a woman with grey hair and I’m watching before my eyes, and the hair turns brown. I have personally, I can tell you, you know, I’m an investigative reporter. I’ve personally got to David’s meetings and I have been to a couple in a row, and I’ve seen people come with their belt loops getting, their belts getting smaller and smaller until they run out of holes in their belt. I mean, they’re like shrinking. David, now, you think that’s interesting, that’s a nice word. You think that’s interesting, what is happening with people with metal in their bodies?

DAVID: Yeah. We just got back from Finland, a national move of God in Finland and people with titanium plates in their chest and their bodies, and their back, start to disappear right in the meeting.

SID: Now Finland, I don’t think of Finland as much more than a religious country. Is this something new for Finland?

DAVID: It’s a new national move of God I’ve never seen in over 20 years of ministry like I’m seeing it right now. Amazing.

SID: Describe what was going on.

DAVID: People from everywhere, six cities, people from all over the cities running in to be saved, to be healed, worshipping for hours, signs, wonders, miracles. It’s like, and the glory that we felt was over the top. The love of God, I’ve never felt and seen the love of God among God’s people that I’ve seen in Finland.

SID: So why Finland? Any idea? I mean, what’s wrong with the United States? I mean, what are we, Swiss cheese?

DAVID: Well it seems like God specializes in countries that are little, not known and on the ends of the earth, kind of like Israel. Everyone thought, why Israel? Well Finland is a country that loves Israel. They bless Israel. Government officials and Christians really love Israel and I think because of that there’s a connection and a favor for revival.

SID: I believe that the dividing line of the true believers—in the true believers in the Messiah and the counterfeit will be, are you on God’s side in reference to the Jew in Israel? I have to tell you this, there’s something that is very, very puzzling. We’ll talk a bit about the Glory later. But David has learned how to tap into the Glory, the manifest presence of God, and all these miracles take place. So why, if this happens, have you devoted the last 20 years of your life studying how the body operates in nutrition and what to eat, and what not to eat? Why would you even waste your time?

DAVID: Because I found out a lot of people can get healed in a meeting, but they don’t keep their healing. A lot of people work for God, they travel, they minister and then they die young, even miracle evangelists. And I started realizing there was a connection between keeping your healing and getting healed.

SID: Now you said to me, when people do not take care of their body naturally, they don’t have energy, they can’t think properly, they can’t sleep properly, they’re overweight, they can’t fulfill their destiny. These are pretty good reasons to be interested in nutrition. I want to find out, because you see, I believe that everything on the earth came in its original state from God. And there are, although it’s in the natural realm, supernatural ways of restoring the health our ancestors had. Don’t go away. Be right back after this word.

Sid: My guest is red hot for the Messiah but on yesterday’s broadcast I found out that she said “God I am so desperate for you I know that there’s more I am totally dissatisfied.”  But wait a second now Debbie Rich; how could someone that sees the miracles you see; see’s people’s lives transformed under the anointing of God as you proclaim the words of God; seen the dead raised; have had heavenly experience; how can you say that “You’re totally dissatisfied where you’re at?”

Debbie:  Well, I believe the the more we know Him that the more we want to know Him.  And Smith Wiggles-worth; that famous English preacher who had 20 some people raised from the dead; made a statement that I  believe represents this.  He said “The only thing that I’m satisfied with is my dissatisfaction because God wants to take us from glory to glory to glory.”  I don’t want to stay where I’m at; I’m so thankful for what I have seen; what I have known and the people’s lives who have been changed in our ministry but I know that there is more.  And I want to reach the entire world with the gospel; I want the whole world to know that Jesus Christ is alive and well; and so I know that there is more yet.

Sid: And you are prophetic; are you a prophet?

Debbie:  Yeah, well I’m hesitant to call myself that because I know that there’s so many people that try to put labels on themselves.

Sid: But most of the profits I know are non-profit but anyway. (Laughing)

Debbie:  (Laughing)

Sid: Anyway seriously you told me that God showed you what is about ready to happen in the United States and even the world. Briefly tell me.

Debbie:  Well, I would just say that this is more of an inner knowing but there have been several times that we’ve stepped out and begin to prophesy things above where our natural thinking is at. And I just know that the immanent return of the Lord Jesus Christ is nigh at hand.  And…

Sid: But Debbie, every generation has said that and every generation should say that but you feel that this is really it.  Oh, yeah just within the last few months can feel things building. We can see somethings in the natural that a person would have to blind if they know the word of God not to see things developing around us.  But it’s what the Holy Spirit is telling on the inside that we must reach the lost now; that He’s coming back for His bride and He wants a Bride from every nation and every culture.  And all I keep hearing him say is that it would be a new awakening in America and Canada where I’m at right now.  The liberality of the laws we see people taking God out of everything..

Sid:  Listen on TV in Canada you’re not even allowed to talk about homosexuality.

Debbie: That’s right.  

Sid: It’s you’ll break the law if you say that this is what the Bible says.

Debbie:  That’s right; and I’ve just found myself weeping the last few days and I can tell it’s the Spirit of God grieving that we must have revival; bring in this harvest and we’re going home. And judgment is about to fall; especially upon the nations that know better.  And..   

Sid: Well, I’m reminded of the scripture “To whom much is given; much is required.”   So America has no excuse.

Debbie:  Absolutely, none; absolutely none.

Sid: Debbie, when you were a crying out to God the other day and you had that marvelous visitation you said to God “You were willing to pay the price; what did you mean by that?”

Debbie:  Well, I believe to operate in the supernatural realm that we’ve got to have a sensitivity to the Holy Spirit where the things of this world to quote an old song singing “Grow strangely dim in the light of His wonder and His grace.” And I want Jesus to become more real to me than anything this earth holds.  And I believe it’s part of paying that price where you’re not caught up in the things of this world and the relationships of this world. And sometimes you can become too conscious of the persecution against you.  I want to get to the place that “Jesus You’re all that matters and I will go where You tell me to go and I will say what You tell me to say and I will not hold back even though it may be costly for me; even though…

Sid: That is not the 21^st century American gospel.  Let me explain you don’t know Dr. Debbie Rich that the gospel according to the 21^st century American version is “Say a prayer with Billy; live like the world and you have your life insurance policy.”

Debbie:  Yes, that does seem to be what is being propagated but that is not what the Bible tells us.

Sid: There is such a difference between the Bible and what we’ve been taught; I think that the greatest hoax put on American Christians is what I just said.  Read, the Bible…you know I tell Jewish people “Read the Bible; think for yourself.”  Well, I’m going to tell people who call themselves Christians and act like the world “Read the Bible; think for your self.”  What does He mean where He says “Narrow is the way that leads to life; few there are that find it.”  I mean and that is not what is being taught in the pulpits of America.  Debbie, I’m going to take you back to when you were 18 years of age; just a kid. You met a guy; he swept you off your feet, but he wanted to marry you. Why did you marry him?

Debbie:  Well, I grew up in a small Pentecostal Church and I was under the impression that you know there is just nobody serving the Lord and if somebody says that he is and he’ll go into the ministry with you you better take him. And he was very romantic and as he said “Debbie, I’m not called to preach but I know you are and I’ll be behind you all the way and I’ll go to Bible school with you.” And I had my doubts something seemed wrong; he didn’t seem as on fire for the Lord as I was. But when I talked to people about that they said “Oh, you’re just demanding perfection Debbie; how many men are going to be willing to support you in the ministry and go to Bible School with you; you know those are little things that you are concerned about.” And I thought “This is just prenuptial gritters I’m just concerned about.”  I’m nervous something seems wrong but you know I was a kid and had not been taught enough about listening to that voice of the Holy Spirit and I overrode those checks. And thought “This is just nervousness and I’m going to go ahead and marry him and we’ll go into the ministry together and it’s going to be wonderful.”

Sid: Like television taught you.

Debbie:  Yes.

Sid: Or the movies.

Debbie:  Yeah.

Sid: But unfortunately it was the opposite; it must have been one of your worse nightmares.

Debbie:  Oh it was; in fact last night in my service I thought that the Lord told me to get more detailed than I’d ever gotten about it to help others get healed up. And He told me to start doing that more; but I woke up to abuse the next morning that lasted for the next 18 years.

Sid: Was it mental or was it physical abuse?

Debbie:  It was both and it daily a barrage of verbal abuse.

Sid: Why did you stay with him so long?

Debbie:  Well, I’d grown up in Pentecost and I’d felt that divorce was probably about the only unpardonable sin and I felt that I’d never have a ministry. And then we started having the children I thought for the sake of the children I need to stay with him.  Only to realize all these years later that more pain was afflicted on my children and that they use to hide in the closets and pray that I would have the courage to leave him.

Sid: Tell me a few of the details.

Debbie: Well, I was not allowed to ever see a doctor and when I became expectant with my first child he said,,,

Sid: Why didn’t he want you to see a doctor?

Debbie:  Just because of his own lust and perversion he felt that a doctor could not look at a woman and not lust after her.

Sid: Hm.

Debbie:  In fact he wouldn’t even speak to me on our honeymoon because my mother had taken me to a doctor before we were married.  And he said to put it in very blunt words he said “I feel like the doctor got you and not me and so I’m not going to speak to you.”  And then when he finally started speaking and went to Bible school he got in fights in Bible School.  If somebody was just parked in his spot he got out of the car and beat them up.  And then one day I came home from Bible School and work and found out that he had withdrawn me from Bible School.  We went to work for the pastor  he grew up with as the youth ministers and we got fired from that position.  And I found out that he was making passes at the girls in the youth group and I just felt that I was doing something wrong; I wasn’t in faith enough; not pretty enough. If I’d get my act together he will love only me.  And so I dieted and I lifted weights; he asked me to that because he was a weight lifter until I was so thin that I was about ready to blow away.  And then I became expectant with our first child he wouldn’t allow me to see a doctor.  I tried to have that boy alone and out in the country and we both almost died. And when my mother-in-law came and called a rescue unit when I got to the hospital they said that “He would have never been born and we would have died” And there was physical abuse on occasions where I was kicked; my glasses were broken and I was hit in the face.  There would have been that daily had I never had said no to anything but I never did because I knew that was what would happen.  And he continued to have affairs with…he made passes at my relatives; my friends all through the years.  And daily told me that I didn’t have him I would have nobody because I was too fat at the weight of 105.  And just terrible temper and just perverse lust (where some of that abuse is what I don’t get into publicly) but that was as bad as anything to where even though he was my husband the perversion he was into he could not be satisfied. I felt like I was being raped daily.  And so I had abuse on all sides for 18 years.

Sid:   Knowing what you know today what advice would you give to a woman that is listening right now and going through the same thing.

Debbie:  Well, I would tell her first of all that God does not expect any woman  to live or any man for that matter to live in fear of their own life. Losing their life to be beaten up to be abused like that.  Woman are to submit to their own husbands as the church submits unto Christ who gave His life for the church.  But a man like that is not loving his wife as Christ loves the church. And you don’t have to submit to sin; you don’t have to submit to the devil or to hell. And I would say first of all; get in a safe place; seek the Lord and continue to pray and believe for his deliverance and his turnaround but you don’t have to live in it while he is making the free choice to submit to the Lord or not.

Sid: I mentioned though that a lot of woman are in these situations because they have children and if they were to leave they can’t support themselves.

Debbie:  That’s right; that’s right. There’s a terrible fear and when you’re under that kind of verbal abuse you lose all dignity; you begin to not be able to think for yourself when you’re under that kind of domination.  And you have no respect for yourself and you can’t even hold your head up after awhile or make decisions.  And that’s when you have to say “Jesus you have to be my strength, my grace; my direction; and you and I can do anything Lord.”

Sid: Debbie, I’m sorry we’re out of time we’ll pick up here on tomorrow’s broadcast. Mishpochah whether that’s your situation or another circumstance that says “You can not achieve what God has for your life; that’s a lie.

Sid: My guest Dr. Susan Jacob is as red hot as they come.  She’s a Jewish believer in Messiah and I want you to capture what would happen Mishpochah if a couple hundred thousand American Jews become like Dr. Susan Jacob?  What would happen when these red hot Jewish believers come into the congregation and the anointing that ancient Jewish anointing splashes on the lukewarm American Christians?  I say these lukewarm American Christians are going to get red hot and the two together are what Paul was talking about in that one new man of the book of Ephesians; where Jesus came to breakdown that middle wall of separations between Jews and Gentiles to form one new man.  And the one new man is the true Body of Messiah; and we’re about ready to have the greatest outpouring of God’s Spirit in history.  And the catalyst is reaching the Jew; and that’s why even in the scriptures God says in Romans 11:11 “Salvation has come the Gentile to provoke the Jew to jealousy.”  And it also says in Roman’s 11 “Partial blindness is on the eyes of the Jewish people until a set time in history occurs.”  It’s called the fullness of the Gentiles Age.  And as far as I’m concerned when the spiritual scales come off of the eyes of Gentile Christians and they see their God called destiny.  And they see they’re something more to life than just going to church on Sunday and acting like the world the rest of the time we’re going to have what Paul calls the glorious Church.  And that’s why God instructed me to write a book called “They Thought for Themselves.”  It’s 10 testimonies of Jewish people that dared to confront the forbidden.  They’re Jewish people from every possible walk of life.  Jewish People involved in the New Age; Jewish people that are PhD’s; there’s Jewish people that are from an atheist to an Orthodox Jewish background.  All had one thing in common; they came to know the Messiah.  And the book is written in such a readable easy fashion that a Jewish person will start reading it and even though scripture is worked into the story line they will not be able to put it down until they finish these stories. And there’s enough information coated with your prayers that these Jewish people will be red hot for the Messiah. So what are you doing about Roman’s 11:11 “Salvation has come to you to provoke the Jew to jealousy.”  Do you think it’s an accident that the Jewish doctor that you know; the Jewish former classmate that you know; the Jewish neighbor that you know; the Jewish attorney that you know; the Jewish dentist that you know?  No, it’s not an accident… Now I hope you’ve been listening all this week to Dr. Susan Jacob as the two of us have been finding out what is normal Christianity; I’m not talking about 21^st century American version of Christianity; I’m talking about Bible Christianity.  Susan your life has been threatened so many times.  Why you’re such a nice person; why do people want to kill you?

Susan:  Because of the good news; because of Jesus Christ!  Many of these Hindu Militants worship the 333 million gods and Muslims worship Allah.  So when the good news is being proclaimed and lives are being changed when people get saved and healed they are being provoked and they are being infuriated and filled with rage and fury because lives are being changed and transformed.

Sid:  Tell me about the time that they tried to poison you.

Susan:  One time they thought that this is strange that all the time that we are happy; miracles are taking place in our home. So the neighbor who is a Hindu militant and also Muslims they did witchcraft and poisoned my water.  God very clearly spoke to us to pray over the water and pour it back into the well; that’s all we knew how to do.  And whatever evil power was in there dissipated and those who were trying to kill us saw what God did and we were still alive and not dead because Jesus is alive!

Sid: And what happened to the ones that saw that?

Susan:  They had many questions; the Lord began touching many of them who did this to us.  And while we were praying and worshiping a lot of witchcraft popped out from the ground and those who harmed us they turned around and gave their hearts to Jesus Christ!  And they saw that they cannot touch God’s anointed because “The one that is in us is greater than the one that is in the world.”

Sid: Out of curiosity your family did not get sick but happened to them?  Did they get sick?

Susan:  They got very sick; the harm went back to them; they were deteriorating and then they asked us to pray for them.  So the Lord would send us there and we prayed and we said “Don’t hurt God’s people and led them to the Lord.”  And many of them accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Savior.

Sid: Now if that’s not enough Mishpochah; tell me the time the militant threw you into the ocean to kill you.

Susan: Yeah, I began to evangelize and we were stoned. I was not afraid I’m reminded of 2^nd Timothy 1:7 “For I have not given you a spirit of fear; but of power and of love and of sound mind.”  Psalm 91 says “He has given us authority to trample over serpents and scorpions.”  So I went door knocking and shared the good news about Jesus Christ and…

Sid: Are you telling me you were literally stoned?

Susan:  Exactly.

Sid: What did they do just pick up stones and throw rocks.

Susan:  Picked up rocks and kicked us out of the place.

Sid: Hmm.

Susan: When we went door knocking to evangelize.

Sid: Okay, go ahead.

Susan: And they were so furious filled with anger that they said “We have to get rid of this people. Grabbed us came about midnight to our home and threw me in the ocean.  And I did not know how to swim but I knew that there’s a God who can save me. As I was sinking and drowning I said “Lord, if you’re alive please save my life and I will serve You for the rest of my life.” I felt a hand pull me out of the ocean and threw me on the shore; the angel of the Lord encamps around those that fear Him. He sent His angels.  I memorized scriptures so in times of danger and persecution these scriptures come into my heart and then I proclaim it; I receive it and I believe in Jesus.  And He saved my life; He sends angels and I was pulled out of the ocean in the middle of the night God saved me.

Sid: Susan I have to ask you something.  It’s exciting when God saves you but this has happened many times to you.  Why do you… you’ve done more than most people why don’t you just keep quiet about Jesus?

Susan:  Oh, I will never keep quiet. He gave His life; He gave everything  for me and that is why I live, I live I live because He lives and my life is for Him; my very existence; my heartbeat is in His hands. I can dry any minute now but I will proclaim about my Messiah Jesus Christ that He died, He’s risen; He is alive forevermore till my last breath!  Because He gave me all and I need to do something for this Savior who died on Calvary.

Sid: Susan do you have any spiritual discernment as to when Jesus is going to return?

Susan:  No, I don’t know when He’s coming but I do know He is coming.

Sid: You had a heavenly visitation; tell me about that.

Susan: Yes, I prayed to Lord “What will happen to my body?”  I was lifted up from this place and He took me to heaven.  And I saw the angels singing and worshiping and I saw my body being transformed; gloried.  My body is not like what I see now; it’s different.  And…

Sid: How would it be different?  I see the way your body is now because we met in person; how will it be different?

Susan:  I was neither a male or female it was gloried; it was all like glory shining!

Sid: But your shining quite a bit now; but you were saying you were shinning more?

Susan: It was just like seeing the sunlight; it was so glorified; it was so beautiful and I was flying to heaven it was so beautiful. Some of these you can’t even you know they’re not like diamonds and pearls and precious stones that you see here.  They are so precious and beautiful I’m looking forward to that day.

Sid:  When you were in heaven did the Lord tell you anything else?

Susan:  No, I was just having a good time there and I was just standing there in awe.  And you know spellbound to see the beauty like I asked the Lord “What is it like to be there?”  So that is why He took me up there to see what it is like to out there.

Sid:  Now I’ve been told that many people that have these heavenly visitations don’t want to come back to earth.  What about you?

Susan: Yes I really definitely didn’t want to come back it was beautiful.

Sid: (Laughing) Well, Mishpochah Susan came back and you’re here for a purpose, He who wins souls is wise. The only things that you’re going to take to heaven with you is the crowns for those that came to know the Messiah for the result of your life. We’re living in the fullness of the Gentle age right now; another definition to the word fullness from the Greek is “The Maturity.”  And it’s time this is God’s moment in history to have mercy on Israel. God has destined you in a country that is filled with Jewish people; that as Jonah says they don’t know their left hand from their right hand when it comes to the Messiah.

Sid:  We want everyone to be red hot for the Messiah at least as much as Dr. Susan Jacob is.  Now Dr. Susan Jacob is a Jewish believer in Messiah that is so on fire for Jesus.  We found out on yesterday’s broadcast her entire Jewish family came to the Lord in India.  And they immediately started hearing God’s voice and doing what God wanted. I mean even to the point where Hindu militants tried to kill her; pushed her off a second story building and a miracle happened.  Someone c aught her; she believes that it was an angel because when she looked up she was gone.  But not only that; gifts of healing started to manifest.  Suzanne your mother was blind in one eye; tell me what happened to her.

Susan:  She could not see on one eye and the doctors gave up on her; her eye was really bulging.  And then we went for a big convention and she heard God’s voice; and during that convention they gave an altar call. She said “Lord I want you to heal me; I know I have rheumatism but my main problem is that I am blind; I want to see.”  I’m reminded of the story of Bartamaus who said “Jesus asked me what do you want Me to do?”  Bartimas replied; I am blind I want to see.”  This is what my mother said “I am blind Lord Jesus and I want to see and I want You to come and heal me.”   All of a sudden she saw a man dressed in white come closer to her with a knife in his hand.  He did the surgery on her eye that she could not see.  And then he gave an eye examination and she began to read the scriptures with the blind eye.  I am Jehovah Rapha, Jehovah Shamah I am your healer.   And all of a sudden she ran to the front and proclaimed Jesus healed me; He is a live and the Lord miraculously healed her.  And my sister; oldest sister who was not a believer then came and asked “Mommy, who did the surgery on your eye?”  She said “Do you want to know the name of my surgeon?  His Name is Jesus Christ.  And she accepted Jesus Christ as the personal Savior.  God began to pour His Holy Spirit upon her.  And the doctor asked her when she went to visit; “What happened to your eye, and who did this?”  And she said “His name; my surgeon is Jesus Christ.”  And the Lord touched the Surgeon as well.  Jesus is alive and He’s a healer even today whosoever goes to Him He will touch.

Sid: Susan I know that when you pray for people many many miracles take place.  And I’ll tell you something else that intrigues me about you; when you speak before groups there are many reports of people that literally see Jesus in your meetings.  Explain.

Susan:  Well, I remember some of them it’s the Lord He speaks; I don’t do a thing I’m just His messenger.  He is the light and people get healed; Jesus is the One who invites people; Jesus is the One who does the healing.  Bondages are being broken; sickness are being removed; Jesus is the One.  Invitation is given by Jesus Christ; He said He doesn’t look at the ability; He looks for the availability.  If we are not available He’s going to use a donkey.  And I see Jesus is the One that is calling and is touching and the healing is taking place through Him.

Sid: Susan I believe the anointing of God is here right now for healing.  And I believe if you will start telling people that there is going to be healings happening  all over; would you do that right now?

Susan: Yes.  If there’s any Father God we commit this situation to you.  There are numerous people with sickness and diseases You are going to touch the people.  Whoever of you who is listening to this program we pray that you will reach out to Jesus.  The hands that was nailed for all mankind; took all the diseases, the sickness, the bondages, the problem on Himself the Messiah, Jesus Christ who died; whose risen, whose alive forever more.  And he says “By My stripes you are healed.  And reach out to Him right now; He’s going to heal you because He is the best physician that you can ever get and He’s touching the hearts and lives in numerous people right now.  Just right now reach out to Jesus.  Father we commit all those who are reaching out to You; touch them as never before.  Lord even those who have never experienced the new life we pray may they experience You oh God.  John 3:16 says “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.” Jesus is waiting to touch many people and you are healed because He touched you.

Sid: I have to tell you Susan there is a tremendous presence of God that is going out as you’re speaking these words. And I believe that many people if you are in agreement with what she just spoke if you will start moving the part of the body or checking your body out.  Susan you had cancer on your face that the Lord healed you of; tell me about that.

Susan:  I had a big lump on my chin and there was a big crusade going on and we were praying the speaker.  And we were praying for numerous people for healing they were all healed except me.  And I’m a believer and I said Lord “You healed every man; You did not heal me yet.”  And when I came home when I gave everything to the Lord all of a sudden the lump disappeared.  The Lord miraculously healed me.

Sid: Now explain what you mean when you gave everything to the Lord, what did you mean by that?

Susan:  I surrendered; I committed this lump to him and I forgot about it.  I did not look at it I just gave everything up; my life; this problem here on my chin.  I gave it to him not thinking or pondering or dwelling on it.  Then One day I just looked and it disappeared.  And the Lord miraculously healed me.

Sid: Now you’ve seen many people healed.  Tell me about the person with stomach cancer.

Susan: Yes, the person had problem with her stomach and the Lord asked me to pray.  He touched and He healed the person; she said, “It’s gone I’m healed!”  And we give God the glory because sometimes it’s right away instantaneous because He does the healing.  And right away she was healed.

Sid: Susan you’ve seen just about every miracle we read in the Bible.  Tell us about the time you saw someone that was dead come back to life.

Susan:  An individual; a friend of mine friend died of a very serious sickness; and they asked us to pray.  We went to their home to pray and all the relatives were around there.  And while we were praying we saw the Lord intervention so that family would come to know the Lord.  And we prayed and we just began all we knew was to pray.  As we were praying all of a sudden life began to come in this dead person.  And then they saw the people around realized that we serve a living God; that Jesus is the resurrection.  And they all accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Savior because He gave life to this dead person and he came to life again.

Sid:  Okay Susan.

Susan:  Yes.

Sid:  One of the things; I mean when you meet American Christians that take their salvation for granted; go to church on Sundays, act like the world the rest of the week, what do you tell them?

Susan: You know I think they need to go to Saudi, Arabia get persecuted and come back!

Sid:  (Laughing)

Susan:   Because Jesus is alive!  And I feel very sad; I feel you know my heart is in pain grieving not all churches are like that either.  But some of them are.

Sid: I’m not talking about churches; I’m talking about the real church the people.  Most American Christians are not red hot like you are.

Susan:  I fell very sad; I did tell a few of them like that.  I said “You need to go to Saudi Arabia and see Jesus and see what He’s doing; you have everything; you have freedom we have freedom here.”  And in fact yesterday I shared with a group Christians here. I said “You have freedom; we don’t have freedom He’s alive! You got to stir one another up.”

Sid: Susan you’re stirring us up we’re out of time right now.

Sid:  You know what Mishpochah someone was just healed; someone has a pain in their back and another person in their neck.  If you’ll just bend over; if you’re driving please pull the side of the road.  But if you’ll just bend over or move your head you’ll see the anointing of God has set you free.  We serve such a good God; but there is according to a prophecy given several years ago by Dr. Kenneth Hagin who is a genuine Prophet of God who is with the Lord.  We’re coming into a very critical time in 2005; we’re coming into a… he called it a year of judgment.  But if we judge ourselves we will not be judged. And there’s  a brand new book that’s just come out called “The Missing Ingredient to Success” by Pastor Michael Cameneti pastors Canton Christian Fellowship in Canton, Ohio.  I almost want to take a word out of your title I’ve been trying to do it.  I’d rather call your book “The Missing Ingredient.”  Rather than “The Missing Ingredient to Success” because when you hear success many times you think Michael in terms of monetary things.  But the most important things in life money can’t buy.

Michael:  Very true and it really is a book about success in God; not just success with money or success with those types of things.  The most successful thing I think all of us could do is walk with God on this earth and serve Him and be on fire and advance the Kingdom of God.  Bring people into the Kingdom of God.

Sid:  And every true believer wants to do this but the worries of life the business of this life; the concerns of this life many have gotten bogged down and have lost their first love.  And there’s little foxes that you’re bringing to our attention. The big fox you bring to our attention in your book but little foxes they do a number.  And one of the areas that you’ve been talking about and this was in the Kenneth Hagin prophecy; judging ourselves.  And you were talking about judging others.  And I’m having a little difficulty; what if… let’s just have something hypothetical.  A television ministry the minister has fallen into let’s say homosexual sin.  And he’s still on the air; what should our position be?  We just read Charisma Magazine about this, what should our position be?

Michael:  Well, our position as a believer; as a Christian would be first of all I believe we judge fruit. And the fruit is okay; if there is something there that is not right that is not good then I would not personally; this is my personal opinion I would not personally put myself under someone who is living in sin; who is in outright sin. Now Sid that’s different than you and I missing it  here and there because none of us are perfect.  I never… I make sure to my church that I always let them know that I am not a perfect individual and no one worked on this earth perfect except Jesus.  But as a believer I’m not to dabble in things that are that way; I’m not to be dabbling in homosexuality or pornography on the internet whatever it is the church today is having their struggles with.  I recently was talking to a man that he runs a counseling place that ministers to ministers.  And I thought that this was very interesting Sid.  He said that the increase of ministers coming to them now for pornography issues has increased by 150%.  And he said “The reason being” because I asked the question why?   I mean why, why would that increase so much now?  And he said “Well a minister who pastors in his home town would never go down to the corner store and buy pornography.  He said, “But now because of the availability and access to the internet he said “Ministers are catching themselves in pornography because it’s so easy to avail themselves.”

Sid: Listen, on my computer I am getting email.  I don’t know how it started but I am getting pornographic email.  So I called the computer company and they said “Oh, this is easy and they said we’ll send a warning letter to these people just notify us and you press down on the key and you notify them.  Well, I have found out as a result of notifying them they know now that I’m getting it and they’re selling my name to other pornographic people.  I mean, it bothers me that it’s even on my computer that is not a problem in my life but I can see how it’s so easy for someone to fall down that slippery slope.

Michael:  Yes and to get back to your question because I want to make sure people hear the answer to this.  As a believer we need to be praying for these ministers or any believer we need to pray for them.  I think the key issue is seeing a heart of repentance.

Sid: What’s the fine line between gossip to warn someone that’s say watching that show or do we not do this?

Michael:  Well, as a Christian you know the Bible is against gossip we know that.  I believe gossip is definitely something that God in this hour does not want us to do.  So I believe if a minister has fallen and it’s going to hurt or it’s going to affect another person’s life and they are clueless about this they don’t even know that something is going on.  I believe number 1 the Lord would protect them; but number 2 if we have knowledge of the fact that there is a minister who has fallen and I know someone in our church who’s submitting their lives to him and listening to their teaching.  As a Pastor; as a Shepherd I think that I would reach out to them and say “You’re going to need to watch there because this individual has a problem in their life.”  I would handle it as delicately as I could but at the same time we’re out to protect the believer, we’re out to protect the sheep. That’s what God entrusted me to do; so I believe there is a very fine line Sid.

Sid: Why would you handle it as delicate as you could?

Michael:  In the sense of you don’t want them to become critical.  What would happen is that if you just tell someone that they’re in sin you need to stop.  Then they become critical about everyone.  And they begin to look at everyone and I wonder if that pastor is in sin; or I wonder if that ministers in sin? We want to have a heart that’s open to receive the word but at the same time Jesus made it very clear in His word that we are to judge fruit; we’re to know people by their fruit.  So I believe we’re to look at fruit and say “This individual the fruit they’re manifesting is not something that is good so I’m going to have to stay away from them.”  Now Jesus…

Sid: If I’m understanding you right as far as judging if it’s a proven fact and it’s warning that’s under that ministry then that is the correct thing to do.  But anything beyond that boarders on gossip.

Michael:  Right, here’s something that I thought was very interesting it’s in my book if people want to get the book and find out more about this. But I’ll put it in a quick nutshell.  The Bible says in Revelations “The devil is the accuser of the brethren” so we know that he accuses people.  So it’s sort of like this; as a believer I don’t want to be accusing others a brother or a sister because then I’m if you would side of the devil is.  I’m accusing brethren just like he is. Now again it’s a difference between if it’s a minister in fact Sid the Bible’s very clear Timothy who was a pastor.  Paul wrote to him and he was talking about ministers.  And he said “Ministers deserve double honor; talking about a pastor; but if you have a minister who sins and they’re living in sin you’re to bring them before all and they’re to repent and there’s to be a fear before all because this minister is living wrong and it’s got confronted”  But in the society that we’re living in today it’s almost like we can be an island unto ourselves we don’t have anyone who’s over us a lot of times and so we just go ahead if we get into sin we keep on preaching.  We keep on doing the things that we’re doing.

Sid: What would you recommend to someone that says “You know I’m really convicted I’ve been talking about that person and that’s gossip I know it’s gossip.”  What should they do just keep quiet or do they go to that person or what do you recommend?

Michael:  Well, I recommend what the Bible says and this is what the Bible says Jesus is teaching in Matthew’s gospel.  And Jesus said “If you have something against a brother or a sister go to them directly.”  And so whether this works I have something against me Jesus made it clear; don’t go to your brother, don’t go to your sister don’t tell anyone at this point.  Go to them and try to get this straightened out.  Instead in the church we’ll talk about them and we’ll say things to other people about them and then finally the person you’re talking about hears about it and they’ll come and tell this Christian “You’ve been talking about me” and they’ll say “I haven’t been talking.”  And so a lot of times we don’t want to deal with that confrontation or deal with the situation.  My advice to someone who might be listing today that if you’ve been gossiping about someone; you’ve been talking about someone go to them and just tell them “I have a problem and this is why this is what you’ve done you’ve hurt me or this is what you’ve done to me.”  Try to get the thing to where it’s straightened out.

Sid: Now you know what I have found that the things that we have in our mind are based on some truth but when we go to the person we find out that a lot of it had some exaggeration and it’s not as bad as we thought.

Michael:  That’s exactly true and the reason why Sid I believe is because the devil he likes to put thoughts in our minds.  We have to resist those thoughts; so many times when we have something specifically against a person the devil likes to put thoughts in there and say “Well, you have this.”  And then he makes it even worse and you’re exactly right you go to the person you talk to them and you find out that this isn’t even as bad. And our job is just to go to them and say “Hey, I’m sorry or if you have done something to me that hurt me or offended me.”  Our job is not to make that other person say “I’m sorry or I repent.”  Now if they do that I believe that there can be complete restoration. Some people will say “That’s too bad; I don’t believe I’ve done that.”  And then at that point there’s a second step that Jesus said and I believe it’s to bring it to your pastor or to some of the ministers in the church. The elders in the church and then you approach them with those people.  And then if that person still doesn’t repent the Bibles says bring it before the church.  Well Sid you know that this is a 3 step thing that we’re not doing and a lot of churches you don’t want to do that you don’t want to bring someone up before the church. Or bring the situation up before the church and say that.  But Jesus gave us 3 steps in Matthew’s gospel to do and I believe if we did that we would see a lot less of what goes on sin wise in the church.

Sid: Michael, why is there so much gossip going on in the church?

Michael:  Well, I believe that Proverbs said that it’s something that the Lord actually hates; I mean He despises this.  And I think that the devil does everything that he can to get us side tracked on peoples’ problems. Paul said it this way Sid, he said “I look at no man after the flesh.”  And the reason he said that was because if you look after their flesh you’re going to find something that you don’t like you’ll find something that you can talk about.

Sid: Michael, we’re out of time.